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Re: HOF

Postby Curtis Pride » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:08 pm

princethomas wrote:Bert Blylevin is the perfect example of a great Stat Accumulator. I wouldn't vote for him. He's just a solid pitcher who stayed healthy enough to rack up big numbers. He was a very very good pitcher, but thats all.


Blyleven finished in the 4 in WAR in his league 9 times in his career. 13 times he finished in the top 5 in Ks. 6 times finished 1st or 2nd in shutouts.

He is a HOF more than just being healthy. In a time when he was going against Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, and Steve Carlton, it's going to be tough for any pitcher to win Cy Young awards, but he was continuously one of the best handful of starting pitchers for nearly 2 decades.
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Re: HOF

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:38 pm

who were the next closest to 75%?
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Re: HOF

Postby Tavish » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:42 pm

BitterDodgerFan wrote:who were the next closest to 75%?

Larkin was mid-60s, then Morris and Lee Smith hovering around 50%.
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Re: HOF

Postby Curtis Pride » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:49 pm

Larkin (62%) - He belonged if Alomar belonged. They had almost identical stats while Larkin played the tougher position
Jack Morris (56%) - Doesn't belong
Lee Smith (45%) - meh. Only claim to fame is that he has a lot of a stat that 1) isn't that meaningful and 2) didn't start being cared about until right around when he started to get them.
Bagwell (42%) - should make it eventually.
Raines (38%) - criminal to be so low. Absolutely absolutely belongs.

voting list here:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... operstown/
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Re: HOF

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:05 pm

lol bret boone got 1 vote wtf?????????????
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Re: HOF

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:07 pm

The HOF is going to mean less and less as long as these holier-than-thou, ignorant writers continue to vote this way. And in 5-10 years, if we don't still have guys like Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, and ARod in the Hall, why should it even be taken seriously anymore? You can't exactly have a legitimate HOF without the best players in the sport's history.

I also love the attempts that some of them have made to tie Bagwell without evidence to steroids, even though Alomar played in the same era and is just as likely to have taken PEDs as anybody.


thedude wrote:The Baseball Hall of Fame Official Criteria:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.


http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/rul ... tion/bbwaa

Roberto Alomar spit on an umpire. Mark McGwire took PEDs like a majority of the players in his era did. Not that I necessarily agree, but both actions can be argued to be poor reflections on their integrity, sportsmanship, and character. Why has one player gotten a pass for his "indiscretion" from the writers and the other hasn't?

Also, who decided that the punishment for steroid users would be a ban from the HOF? Why isn't the suspension sufficient? Every other form of cheating has been virtually ignored by writers over the history of baseball and yet it's steroids that push everyone to one side? We've now even gone from indicting players based on name leaks to pure speculation (Bagwell). It's just the same level of ridiculous ignorance from the media that we've seen for the past decade and it will only apparently continue. Time to stop paying attention.
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Re: HOF

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:09 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:Larkin (62%) - He belonged if Alomar belonged. They had almost identical stats while Larkin played the tougher position
Jack Morris (56%) - Doesn't belong
Lee Smith (45%) - meh. Only claim to fame is that he has a lot of a stat that 1) isn't that meaningful and 2) didn't start being cared about until right around when he started to get them.
Bagwell (42%) - should make it eventually.
Raines (38%) - criminal to be so low. Absolutely absolutely belongs.

voting list here:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... operstown/


Larry Walker was a HOF caliber player, but he's another victim of perception (instead of steroids, it's the Coors Field effect) and having never having played in a big American market.
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Re: HOF

Postby Curtis Pride » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:34 pm

I think Walker is partially docked for never being healthy. In 17 years, he missed nearly 5 full seasons to injury. There aren't a lot of hall of fame hitters that played less than 2,000 games.

When he was healthy, he was awesome, but the "Coors Effect" can't be discounted when he was there. He had a 1.000+ OPS during his 10 years in Colorado, and about an .850 OPS in Montreal and St. Louis.

This is a stadium that turned alsorans like Vinny Castilla (.870 OPS with the Rockies, sub .700 on other teams) and Dante Bichette (.890 OPS with the Rockies, .760 not) into hall-of-famers. Playing his entire career in Colorado will help Helton's case, because there won't be that huge red flag about his much poorer numbers out of Coors.

The person who surprised me from the Colorado days in terms of "HOF case": Ellis Burks. .957 OPS in Colorado. .971 with the Giants. .885 with the Indians. Certainly wouldn't get a HOF vote from me, but he was far better than I expected. .874 Career OPS with 350 homers and nearly 200 SBs out of your CF is pretty sweet.
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Re: HOF

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:43 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:I think Walker is partially docked for never being healthy. In 17 years, he missed nearly 5 full seasons to injury. There aren't a lot of hall of fame hitters that played less than 2,000 games.

When he was healthy, he was awesome, but the "Coors Effect" can't be discounted when he was there. He had a 1.000+ OPS during his 10 years in Colorado, and about an .850 OPS in Montreal and St. Louis.


That's what adjusted OPS is for.

Joe Posnanski wrote:But if you have done your math, you know that I’m voting for Walker. I think he was a great all-around player. His 140 career OPS+ — and that, of course, takes into account his ballpark — is significantly better than those of Dawson (119), Rickey Henderson (127), Rice (128), Tony Gwynn (132), Dave Winfield (130) and Kirby Puckett (124) — the outfielders who have been voted in since 2000. Obviously, they each have different cases (Henderson’s OPS+ is entirely beside the point when looking at his career), but it shows how good a hitter Walker was. His .278/.370/.495 split for road game certainly pales against his home numbers, but those are still very good road numbers — yes, he played in a good offensive era, but it’s worth pointing out that his road on-base percentage is better than George Brett’s CAREER on-base percentage, and that his .495 road slugging percentage is higher than Reggie Jackson’s CAREER slugging percentage.


He was also a great defensive outfielder who stole 230 bases at a 75% rate, but I'm not sure he's been fully given credit for how good he was in those areas.
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Re: HOF

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:49 pm

And you said Raines absolutely belonged, right?

Larry Walker: 67.3 WAR
Tim Raines: 64.6 WAR

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml
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