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Bagwell and the HOF?

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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:28 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:And as an aside, why are Thome, Griffey, and Frank Thomas given a free pass in regards to 'roids. If anyone ever dared suggest that Griffey 'roided they'd be beaten down. But Bagwell. Sure, we'll just create this alternate reality where everyone in baseball thought Bagwell was roiding.

It may be hard for some to remember now, but Roger Clemens was also on this list a few years back before the Mitchell Report came out. To me, he was always such an obvious PED candidate, but everyone was always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt back then.

Anyway, the answer is an easy one. Fans and the media want to believe in a world where at least some of their sports heroes are "clean and pure." This is especially applicable in baseball, considering the naive and nostalgic belief that many fans have about the purity of the sport's past. Fortunately for Griffey, Thome, the Big Hurt and many pitchers of the same era, they've all been perceived in a good light. And to these voters, perception is everything.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Verminator » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:30 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Verminator wrote:
Tavish wrote:Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Bagwell the prototypical roider other than he says he didn't do them?


a) The eye test
b) Punching Judy minor league numbers
c) Sudden career crash

So Hanley Ramirez is a roider? (also it's "punch and judy", not "punching judy"

And in regards to the "eye test". Have you seen pictures of Roberto Alomar early in his career? Andruw Jones? Ken Griffey, Jr? Frank Thomas? People gain weight as they age. And the fact that Bagwell got incredibly muscular, so what? That means he had to be roiding?

I know people that have 9-5 jobs who are cut up and gained muscle. Let alone the fact that he entire job is to be in shape. How is that hard to imagine that someone can gain a bunch of muscle by eating right and spending 2 hours a day in the gym for a decade?

The fact is, Bagwell never tested positively. Bagwell was never accused of 'roiding during the whole '04 blowout. Bagwell never showed up on any list of suspected 'roiders. There is absolutely no rational reason to lump him in with the 'roiders.

And as an aside, why are Thome, Griffey, and Frank Thomas given a free pass in regards to 'roids. If anyone ever dared suggest that Griffey 'roided they'd be beaten down. But Bagwell. Sure, we'll just create this alternate reality where everyone in baseball thought Bagwell was roiding.


I never knew it was "Punch and Judy"... wow! I learn something new every day and look like an idiot at the same time.

Notwithstanding Bagwell's alleged innocence, the HOF voters and the court of general opinion has a right to suspect. His career progression and appearance screams usage during a time where usage was rampant. I refuse to presume innocence just because he was never part of a report or admitted to using PEDs. I know we didn't see this type of progression in Griffey or Thomas. I am pretty sure Thome didn't display these red flags either.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Verminator » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:37 pm

Tavish wrote:
Curtis Pride wrote:And as an aside, why are Thome, Griffey, and Frank Thomas given a free pass in regards to 'roids. If anyone ever dared suggest that Griffey 'roided they'd be beaten down. But Bagwell. Sure, we'll just create this alternate reality where everyone in baseball thought Bagwell was roiding.

The Alomar vote is interesting to me because now we are starting to get very close to players who played pretty much their entire career within the steroid era. I think how the voters handle the high HR hitters vs the more balanced players will be pretty telling when it comes to their hypocrisy. Their is easily as much evidence that Alomar roided as their is that Bagwell did (which is basically none other than whom they played with and when they played) but I'm fairly certain that anyone who hit that 40 HR threshold in a season will be treated much differently than those who didn't.


I agree, the Alomar vote is a bit odd, but he did still seem to follow a natural career progression of peaking in his late 20s and falling off in his mid-30s.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Verminator » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:39 pm

PDRAstrosFan wrote:
Verminator wrote:
Tavish wrote:Maybe I'm missing something. What makes Bagwell the prototypical roider other than he says he didn't do them?


a) The eye test
b) Punching Judy minor league numbers
c) Sudden career crash



Sudden Career Crash? Try degenerative arthritis of the shoulder. I seriously doubt he was a user. ESPN made great points in stating that he was never listed in the Mitchell Report or by anyone else. You could have user friends and not be a user.


Correct.... degenerative arthritis of the shoulder caused by the prolonged use of roids! ;-D
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:22 am

It's crazy to me that people assume Griffey never used PEDs. I assume he did. He'd be crazy not to have, in fact.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:33 am

all u have to look at is the head size
griffey didn't have a huge growth of his head
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:25 am

is nerve tonic a PED?
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Last edited by Dan Lambskin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Tavish » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:12 am

Verminator wrote:
Tavish wrote:
Curtis Pride wrote:And as an aside, why are Thome, Griffey, and Frank Thomas given a free pass in regards to 'roids. If anyone ever dared suggest that Griffey 'roided they'd be beaten down. But Bagwell. Sure, we'll just create this alternate reality where everyone in baseball thought Bagwell was roiding.

The Alomar vote is interesting to me because now we are starting to get very close to players who played pretty much their entire career within the steroid era. I think how the voters handle the high HR hitters vs the more balanced players will be pretty telling when it comes to their hypocrisy. Their is easily as much evidence that Alomar roided as their is that Bagwell did (which is basically none other than whom they played with and when they played) but I'm fairly certain that anyone who hit that 40 HR threshold in a season will be treated much differently than those who didn't.


I agree, the Alomar vote is a bit odd, but he did still seem to follow a natural career progression of peaking in his late 20s and falling off in his mid-30s.

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Other than the strike shortened season in 1994 when Bagwell had his MVP season their career paths were pretty dang similar.
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby wrveres » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:47 am

Verminator wrote:I refuse to presume innocence

people like this scare me
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Re: Bagwell and the HOF?

Postby Curtis Pride » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:05 pm

wrveres wrote:
Verminator wrote:I refuse to presume innocence

people like this scare me

solid point.
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