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News of the weird/funny/pointless

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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Madison » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:13 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Florida didn't "act first." According to the article, it's the only state with a law that allows for prosecution of the author of the book. Also, nobody in this thread, and with the possible exception of the author of this ridiculous book, nobody in the world, thinks child rape is okay, but nice strawman.

Drugging people and cutting them into tiny pieces is illegal (even if they are rapists). You should be arrested for advocating such things.


Every state has decency and obscenity laws, Florida isn't the only one regardless of what the article says. Maybe there is some sort of law regarding this specific matter that only Florida has, but any state could have filed against this guy.

Accusing someone of having a "strawman" argument is an acceptance that you cannot refute what is being said. Get with the times Art. :-b

And sure, prosecute me for saying pedophiles should be tortured and killed. Toss your own "free speech" mumbo-jumbo out the window. That's the way to win your argument. ;-D

StlSluggers wrote:Did you read the story? The arresting sheriff states "the other 49 states may not be able to do anything about this", implying that Florida is the only state in the Union that carries the law they plan on enforcing. This, of course, begs the question, "If that Florida law can stop people from writing a book like this, and if everyone in the country pretty much agrees that books like this suck, then why don't the other 49 states have this law, too?" Of course, the answer is "They know its unconstitutional and would only result in rogue political officers wasting taxpayer money to pursue something which will eventually be overturned." But that didn't stop Florida, did it?


Yes, I did read the story. Read my response to Art above in this post and you'll get your answer.

StlSluggers wrote:This book doesn't involve raping a child either. I mean, I'm pretty sure he's not being arrested for raping a couple boys in preparation for writing this book. Am I wrong?


As far as I know, he isn't being prosecuted for rape (yet). However, it is the context that breaks the law.

A similar example of where the context makes a huge difference between legal and a violation of decency laws:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Extreme_Associates

And in that one, they were all consenting adults, yet a company was shut down, fines were imposed, and the owners of the company went to jail.

StlSluggers wrote:You're mixing two matters. Public outrage should create laws, not create mob justice. When the masses create an overarching law (First Amendment) that supersedes a law like the one in Florida, then creation of that law is a waste of time and an attempt to enforce it based solely on public outrage is nothing less than mob rule. Something I feel you have always had a major problem accepting is that our laws often give a single, lone person the right to do something that 999,999 people don't like. That's what separates a real society from an angry, fickle mob. Sure, it sucks. I'd love to have seen that lady who was harassing that dying little girl get dragged into the street and beaten to within an inch of her life, but our laws give her the right to be an asshole.


Public outrage has already created laws. This guy isn't being prosecuted over a new law or anything.

I don't have a problem with someone being able to do something the rest of the world disagrees with, provided there are no consequences to anyone else. The minute that one person's actions cause pain, suffering, or infringes on someone else's "so-called" rights is where my issue is.

I agree that the lady you mentioned deserves to have bad things happen to her, and last I heard, bad things have happened to her as a result of that story. While the lady might have had the ability to act the way she did, that doesn't mean she's immune to other laws.

You can ignore my point about wasted money all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that going after this guy is a waste of money and someone like you should be appalled by it.


I didn't ignore it, I actually agree with you. I am appalled by the waste of money. A bullet is all it should cost to rid ourselves of this piece of trash. But laws require he get a trial, appeals, etc, and that is very appalling.

StlSluggers wrote:... you need to look a little closer. :-D


Shoot me a PM if you need to because I honestly don't know which story it is you want me to read. There are a bunch of different ones.

And what's up with "safari"? I thought Firefox was what all the cool kids are doing nowadays? :-b
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:16 pm

Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:... you need to look a little closer. :-D


Shoot me a PM if you need to because I honestly don't know which story it is you want me to read. There are a bunch of different ones.

I didn't want to c&p it, because then I'd have to put it in the pic thread. I guess it was a little too subtle, though.

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Why yes... I did mean that. :-D

Madison wrote:And what's up with "safari"? I thought Firefox was what all the cool kids are doing nowadays? :-b

Got me. Wasn't my link.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby GiantsFan14 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:22 pm

can't we all just agree that the guy is a sicko and probably deserves whatever he gets? i think it's pretty clear that the world would be a better place without him.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:26 pm

GiantsFan14 wrote:can't we all just agree that the guy is a sicko and probably deserves whatever he gets? i think it's pretty clear that the world would be a better place without him.

Sicko, yes, but it's still a terrible precedent to disregard law just because purple aren't happy
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:44 pm

StlSluggers wrote: but it's still a terrible precedent to disregard law just because purple aren't happy

viewtopic.php?t=244103
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Tis » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:47 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Great point. So should I assume that the other 49 states that Florida mentioned, including Texas, do not have these 'decency' laws because they think material like this is decent?
...
The reality is that the sheriff, county, and state prosecutors for Florida (and the other 49 states that don't even have this stupid, Florida law), know that they will lose this case on federal appeal.


So because Florida acted first, that means the other 49 states think the book is ok? Do I really need to point out how flawed that logic is or did you post that and simply hope I'd overlook it?


Florida didn't "act first." According to the article, it's the only state with a law that allows for prosecution of the author of the book. Also, nobody in this thread, and with the possible exception of the author of this ridiculous book, nobody in the world, thinks child rape is okay, but nice strawman.

Drugging people and cutting them into tiny pieces is illegal (even if they are rapists). You should be arrested for advocating such things.


Where in the article does it say that other states don't have similar decency laws? It doesn't. It says there is nothing they can do. That is very different. My understanding wasn't that the states didn't have laws against that kind of material, but that they didn't have jurisdiction.

Now, perhaps colorado has jurisdiction because he lives there, but even they might have to show that someone in colorado bought the book, but in order for any of those other 49 states to be able to haul his perverted butt down to the courthouse, they need to show (basically) that he carried on business in the state. So unless some perv-in-training in one of those other states volunteers that he bought the book, those states can't do anything, even if they have laws against the distribution of that kind of material. Florida, however, has a nice, unquestionable example of him distributing the book within their borders. Hence, they (probably) have jurisdiction, hence they can try to enforce their laws.

Related question: If some pedophile does use the book, and admits it (or there is ample evidence of it), could the author be an accessory/accomplice?
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:54 pm

isn't this entrapment? (of madison)
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:02 pm

Tis wrote:Where in the article does it say that other states don't have similar decency laws? It doesn't. It says there is nothing they can do. That is very different. My understanding wasn't that the states didn't have laws against that kind of material, but that they didn't have jurisdiction.

Now, perhaps colorado has jurisdiction because he lives there, but even they might have to show that someone in colorado bought the book, but in order for any of those other 49 states to be able to haul his perverted butt down to the courthouse, they need to show (basically) that he carried on business in the state. So unless some perv-in-training in one of those other states volunteers that he bought the book, those states can't do anything, even if they have laws against the distribution of that kind of material. Florida, however, has a nice, unquestionable example of him distributing the book within their borders. Hence, they (probably) have jurisdiction, hence they can try to enforce their laws.

I'd sure like to read the article where it mentioned that other states had laws but no jurisdiction. I would shudder if Floridian police were the only ones who thought of the bright idea of buying the book themselves.

Tis wrote:Related question: If some pedophile does use the book, and admits it (or there is ample evidence of it), could the author be an accessory/accomplice?

I guess the easy answer is: Have you ever heard of anyone being prosecuted as an accessory for writing any other kind of book that explained how to commit a crime.

Actually, that's the easiest way to think about this, in general. Has anyone else ever been rightfully prosecuted simply for writing a how-to manual focused on a crime? And I'm not talking about McCarthy kind of prosecution, unless you want to be associated with the Salem witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:17 pm

For the obscenity issue...

For one thing, she said, "obscenity" is defined by local community standards. But she said a case like this could end up before the Supreme Court, where some justices have expressed a willingness to examine whether, in the age of the Internet, the community standard should go far beyond local.
...
"As bad as the book may be, the charge opens a very big Pandora's box," Dennis J. Kenney, a former Polk County police officer who is now a professor at John Jay College Criminal Justice in New York, told The Associated Press. "The charges sound to me like a significant overreach."

But a university colleague, professor Lawrence Kobilinsky, offers a different take.

"On moral grounds I think the sheriff has done the right thing. I think the sheriff's on good grounds morally and probably legally as well," Kobilinsky told AOL News.

David Cole, a law professor at the Georgetown University, pointed out that the obscenity charge is far different from a child pornography charge. The latter is clearly not protected by the First Amendment when photos depict a minor in a sexual manner.

He said the obscenity case will come down to "community standards" and whether a Polk County jury finds the book not only offensive, but of no redeeming social value.

Under Florida law, it is a third-degree felony to sell or distribute "written or printed story or article, writing or printed matter based on materials that depict a minor engaged in any act or conduct that is harmful to minors."

Lidsky, the Florida professor, says the standards of obscenity will come down to whether the work lacked "any serious literary, artistic or scientific value." She said the law has been careful not to implicate some serious literary works that could be considered obscene by some.

She said this case is something the Supreme Court might be willing to look at if it decides to examine whether community standards in the Internet age should remain local or be much broader.

sauce

You have to think the Supreme Court is interested in a case like this so that they can narrow the reach of obscenity laws. It wouldn't make sense for them to want to say "Yes, keep it how it is!"

And regarding the specific, Florida law, I'll be interested to see if Crusader Judd goes after works of literature where a minor is consuming alcohol or drugs, which would "clearly depict a minor engaged in any act or conduct that is harmful to minors." Shoot, a book about a kid killing him/herself, or even eating too much fattening food would fit that loose definition.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby knapplc » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:38 pm

I'm going to go ahead and be politically incorrect and side with keeping kids safe from predators.

I would far rather "rights be trampled" and make children more safe than protecting some nebulous set of "rights" people dreamed up.
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