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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:48 pm

Madison wrote:And yeah, if someone writes a book/paper/whatever on how to rape children, and distributes that book/paper/whatever, I think they should be tortured in every way possible before finally being executed. If that makes me a bad guy, so be it.

What you think and what's allowed aren't the same thing.

I can't imagine any of us are applauding this guy for writing this, but our laws also protect him and give him the right to do so even though we don't like it.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Art Vandelay » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:08 pm

Madison wrote:It's not a free speech issue though, it's a decency issue and there are others on the books that are in the same vein. For example, if you drop an F-Bomb in public in Texas (and some other states I'm sure), you can be given a citation.

Those are ridiculous laws too.
Madison wrote:If you threaten the president, you can go to jail. Nowadays, if you threaten anyone, it qualifies as assault. All of those are simple free speech to say whatever we want, yet there are rules and laws that govern the so-called free speech "right" that really doesn't exist even though some people still try to fool themselves that it does exist.

I think there is a clear line that can be drawn between a direct threat toward an individual, and a "manual" of this type that illustrates a hypothetical. Someone saying "you could kill someone with poison and get away with it" is far different than saying "I'm going to kill John Smith with poison."
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:25 pm

My favorite, cliche response is "Writing a book about how to make bombs doesn't make you a terrorist."
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Madison » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:55 am

StlSluggers wrote:I can't imagine any of us are applauding this guy for writing this, but our laws also protect him and give him the right to do so even though we don't like it.


Actually our laws don't. This is a decency issue, not a free speech issue, and there are tons of decency laws in this country. Free speech is not carte-blanche to say whatever we want, whenever we want, wherever we want. Way too many people simply don't understand that there are limits and qualifications to any and all so-called "rights" out there, and idiots like this guy that knowingly exceed those limits deserve the punishment they will get (and more often than not, the punishment really isn't stern enough).

Art Vandelay wrote:Those are ridiculous laws too.


Regardless of what any of us thinks about the law (or laws), disagreeing with the law doesn't grant someone the right to break the law. There are plenty of laws I disagree with, but that doesn't mean I can just break them because I think they are stupid. That goes for each and every single one of us.

Art Vandelay wrote:I think there is a clear line that can be drawn between a direct threat toward an individual, and a "manual" of this type that illustrates a hypothetical. Someone saying "you could kill someone with poison and get away with it" is far different than saying "I'm going to kill John Smith with poison."


True, it was a bad analogy. My brain was just stunned that anyone would support allowing someone else to distribute materials explaining how to rape children and get away with it, regardless of whatever cockamamie reasoning was attempted to be used.
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:04 am

Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:I can't imagine any of us are applauding this guy for writing this, but our laws also protect him and give him the right to do so even though we don't like it.


Actually our laws don't. This is a decency issue, not a free speech issue, and there are tons of decency laws in this country. Free speech is not carte-blanche to say whatever we want, whenever we want, wherever we want. Way too many people simply don't understand that there are limits and qualifications to any and all so-called "rights" out there, and idiots like this guy that knowingly exceed those limits deserve the punishment they will get (and more often than not, the punishment really isn't stern enough).

Great point. So should I assume that the other 49 states that Florida mentioned, including Texas, do not have these 'decency' laws because they think material like this is decent? I guess that Florida must also think it's 'decent' to publish books about how to kill people silently, how to commit bank fraud, or the insanely famous book about how to make good old fashioned bombs. Right? I mean, they haven't ordered those books so that they can go arrest those guys, so your logic dictates that they consider those books to be decent.

Never mind all of those books. I'll compare apples to apples for you so you can't argue that there's a difference. What about the other 'how to be a pedophile' book that Amazon was selling before this guy's book came out, that never got the same headlines, and that they didn't pull until after this book was pulled (It was called Understanding Loved Boys and Boy Lovers)? Any reason why they haven't extended this 'decency' law to him, too? It's the same kind of book after all.

The truth is that this isn't about 'decency' or any other philosophical/pseudo-legal argument you can come up with. The one and only reason this guy is being pursued is that his book made national headlines, which politically incentivizes trying to prosecute this guy. The reality is that the sheriff, county, and state prosecutors for Florida (and the other 49 states that don't even have this stupid, Florida law), know that they will lose this case on federal appeal. But these guys don't care about that. For the price of some tens of thousands of taxpayers' dollars and any number of countless, wasted man-hours, all of these guys get to look tough in the headlines. That will save them thousands when it comes to running for office again, because they won't have to appeal to the hardcore right wingers out there. Those votes will have been bought and paid for with wasted tax dollars.

Let me ask you this: When this case gets thrown out (or he is eventually acquitted), will a small-government, less-taxes guy like you find it preposterous that they wasted so much tax money on a case they knew they'd lose? Wouldn't it have been better to hire another cop to go after the real criminals who are breaking real laws that can actually be punished? Will there be any outrage on your part that their court loss will set a legal precedent and make it even harder to arrest and prosecute 'indecent' folks in the future?
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:24 am

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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:58 am

StlSluggers wrote:
Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:I can't imagine any of us are applauding this guy for writing this, but our laws also protect him and give him the right to do so even though we don't like it.


Actually our laws don't. This is a decency issue, not a free speech issue, and there are tons of decency laws in this country. Free speech is not carte-blanche to say whatever we want, whenever we want, wherever we want. Way too many people simply don't understand that there are limits and qualifications to any and all so-called "rights" out there, and idiots like this guy that knowingly exceed those limits deserve the punishment they will get (and more often than not, the punishment really isn't stern enough).

Great point. So should I assume that the other 49 states that Florida mentioned, including Texas, do not have these 'decency' laws because they think material like this is decent? I guess that Florida must also think it's 'decent' to publish books about how to kill people silently, how to commit bank fraud, or the insanely famous book about how to make good old fashioned bombs. Right? I mean, they haven't ordered those books so that they can go arrest those guys, so your logic dictates that they consider those books to be decent.

Never mind all of those books. I'll compare apples to apples for you so you can't argue that there's a difference. What about the other 'how to be a pedophile' book that Amazon was selling before this guy's book came out, that never got the same headlines, and that they didn't pull until after this book was pulled (It was called Understanding Loved Boys and Boy Lovers)? Any reason why they haven't extended this 'decency' law to him, too? It's the same kind of book after all.

The truth is that this isn't about 'decency' or any other philosophical/pseudo-legal argument you can come up with. The one and only reason this guy is being pursued is that his book made national headlines, which politically incentivizes trying to prosecute this guy. The reality is that the sheriff, county, and state prosecutors for Florida (and the other 49 states that don't even have this stupid, Florida law), know that they will lose this case on federal appeal. But these guys don't care about that. For the price of some tens of thousands of taxpayers' dollars and any number of countless, wasted man-hours, all of these guys get to look tough in the headlines. That will save them thousands when it comes to running for office again, because they won't have to appeal to the hardcore right wingers out there. Those votes will have been bought and paid for with wasted tax dollars.

Let me ask you this: When this case gets thrown out (or he is eventually acquitted), will a small-government, less-taxes guy like you find it preposterous that they wasted so much tax money on a case they knew they'd lose? Wouldn't it have been better to hire another cop to go after the real criminals who are breaking real laws that can actually be punished? Will there be any outrage on your part that their court loss will set a legal precedent and make it even harder to arrest and prosecute 'indecent' folks in the future?

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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Madison » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:04 pm

StlSluggers wrote:Great point. So should I assume that the other 49 states that Florida mentioned, including Texas, do not have these 'decency' laws because they think material like this is decent? I guess that Florida must also think it's 'decent' to publish books about how to kill people silently, how to commit bank fraud, or the insanely famous book about how to make good old fashioned bombs. Right? I mean, they haven't ordered those books so that they can go arrest those guys, so your logic dictates that they consider those books to be decent.

Never mind all of those books. I'll compare apples to apples for you so you can't argue that there's a difference. What about the other 'how to be a pedophile' book that Amazon was selling before this guy's book came out, that never got the same headlines, and that they didn't pull until after this book was pulled (It was called Understanding Loved Boys and Boy Lovers)? Any reason why they haven't extended this 'decency' law to him, too? It's the same kind of book after all.

The truth is that this isn't about 'decency' or any other philosophical/pseudo-legal argument you can come up with. The one and only reason this guy is being pursued is that his book made national headlines, which politically incentivizes trying to prosecute this guy. The reality is that the sheriff, county, and state prosecutors for Florida (and the other 49 states that don't even have this stupid, Florida law), know that they will lose this case on federal appeal. But these guys don't care about that. For the price of some tens of thousands of taxpayers' dollars and any number of countless, wasted man-hours, all of these guys get to look tough in the headlines. That will save them thousands when it comes to running for office again, because they won't have to appeal to the hardcore right wingers out there. Those votes will have been bought and paid for with wasted tax dollars.

Let me ask you this: When this case gets thrown out (or he is eventually acquitted), will a small-government, less-taxes guy like you find it preposterous that they wasted so much tax money on a case they knew they'd lose? Wouldn't it have been better to hire another cop to go after the real criminals who are breaking real laws that can actually be punished? Will there be any outrage on your part that their court loss will set a legal precedent and make it even harder to arrest and prosecute 'indecent' folks in the future?


So because Florida acted first, that means the other 49 states think the book is ok? Do I really need to point out how flawed that logic is or did you post that and simply hope I'd overlook it?

True, the other books have faced the same legal challenged and remained available. None involve raping a child. And generally, the entire country has agreed that raping a child is wrong (until now of course).

As to the other child raping book, I didn't even know it existed until the news hit on the book we are discussing. I'd venture a guess I'm not the only one who had never heard of it. Regardless, I'm sure that the other book will be read by someone with the authority to prosecute, and if found to be worth prosecuting, they'll do it. Just depends on how the book is written and if it is worthwhile. As a comparison to explain, you posted a "funny" the other day with a figure using super-glue as lube in order to have infinite sex. Technically speaking, if such a plan were to work, that would constitute rape. But the logistics are so poor in executing that "plan" that no one would bother prosecuting you over the joke. The severity and level of decency is what matters. Foul language is a perfect example. I can't say the "F" word while disagreeing with a police officer without getting a ticket, but I can say pretty much any other profanity I want. The levels matter. Same with these books. For all any of us know, the other book is absurd and silly where as this book is much more likely to cause child rapists to get away with their crimes. Maybe both are worthless and not worth prosecuting over, maybe both are well put together and definitely worth prosecuting over. I haven't read either, so I can't say. But the law will.

Sure, the public outrage is playing a part, and it should. The morals of the country play a huge part in who we are and are a big reason why laws are even made. I mean if we didn't think it was wrong to kill someone we didn't like (or better, if we didn't think it was wrong to kill worthless idiots - like pedophiles), there would be no law against murder. But our morals say it is wrong to kill, so we have a laws against it. If the government doesn't act in the ways we want them to, they will be replaced, so of course part of why Florida is prosecuting is due to the public opinion. And this idiot won't be able to hide behind "free speech" laws, as much as you might want him to be able to.

Ever see the movie Law Abiding Citizen? If so, remember the part where the father drugged the rapist killer and cut him into tiny pieces? That is the biggest expense we should go to while dealing with this idiot. So yes, I do dislike the fact we have to waste thousands of dollars in court, rather than simply killing this worthless vermin.

StlSluggers wrote:http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=naked+woman&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


Wrong link? Not sure what you were trying to show me. Lots of different stuff there.
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Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:25 pm

Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Great point. So should I assume that the other 49 states that Florida mentioned, including Texas, do not have these 'decency' laws because they think material like this is decent? I guess that Florida must also think it's 'decent' to publish books about how to kill people silently, how to commit bank fraud, or the insanely famous book about how to make good old fashioned bombs. Right? I mean, they haven't ordered those books so that they can go arrest those guys, so your logic dictates that they consider those books to be decent.

Never mind all of those books. I'll compare apples to apples for you so you can't argue that there's a difference. What about the other 'how to be a pedophile' book that Amazon was selling before this guy's book came out, that never got the same headlines, and that they didn't pull until after this book was pulled (It was called Understanding Loved Boys and Boy Lovers)? Any reason why they haven't extended this 'decency' law to him, too? It's the same kind of book after all.

The truth is that this isn't about 'decency' or any other philosophical/pseudo-legal argument you can come up with. The one and only reason this guy is being pursued is that his book made national headlines, which politically incentivizes trying to prosecute this guy. The reality is that the sheriff, county, and state prosecutors for Florida (and the other 49 states that don't even have this stupid, Florida law), know that they will lose this case on federal appeal. But these guys don't care about that. For the price of some tens of thousands of taxpayers' dollars and any number of countless, wasted man-hours, all of these guys get to look tough in the headlines. That will save them thousands when it comes to running for office again, because they won't have to appeal to the hardcore right wingers out there. Those votes will have been bought and paid for with wasted tax dollars.

Let me ask you this: When this case gets thrown out (or he is eventually acquitted), will a small-government, less-taxes guy like you find it preposterous that they wasted so much tax money on a case they knew they'd lose? Wouldn't it have been better to hire another cop to go after the real criminals who are breaking real laws that can actually be punished? Will there be any outrage on your part that their court loss will set a legal precedent and make it even harder to arrest and prosecute 'indecent' folks in the future?


So because Florida acted first, that means the other 49 states think the book is ok? Do I really need to point out how flawed that logic is or did you post that and simply hope I'd overlook it?

True, the other books have faced the same legal challenged and remained available. None involve raping a child. And generally, the entire country has agreed that raping a child is wrong (until now of course).

As to the other child raping book, I didn't even know it existed until the news hit on the book we are discussing. I'd venture a guess I'm not the only one who had never heard of it. Regardless, I'm sure that the other book will be read by someone with the authority to prosecute, and if found to be worth prosecuting, they'll do it. Just depends on how the book is written and if it is worthwhile. As a comparison to explain, you posted a "funny" the other day with a figure using super-glue as lube in order to have infinite sex. Technically speaking, if such a plan were to work, that would constitute rape. But the logistics are so poor in executing that "plan" that no one would bother prosecuting you over the joke. The severity and level of decency is what matters. Foul language is a perfect example. I can't say the "F" word while disagreeing with a police officer without getting a ticket, but I can say pretty much any other profanity I want. The levels matter. Same with these books. For all any of us know, the other book is absurd and silly where as this book is much more likely to cause child rapists to get away with their crimes. Maybe both are worthless and not worth prosecuting over, maybe both are well put together and definitely worth prosecuting over. I haven't read either, so I can't say. But the law will.

Sure, the public outrage is playing a part, and it should. The morals of the country play a huge part in who we are and are a big reason why laws are even made. I mean if we didn't think it was wrong to kill someone we didn't like (or better, if we didn't think it was wrong to kill worthless idiots - like pedophiles), there would be no law against murder. But our morals say it is wrong to kill, so we have a laws against it. If the government doesn't act in the ways we want them to, they will be replaced, so of course part of why Florida is prosecuting is due to the public opinion. And this idiot won't be able to hide behind "free speech" laws, as much as you might want him to be able to.

Ever see the movie Law Abiding Citizen? If so, remember the part where the father drugged the rapist killer and cut him into tiny pieces? That is the biggest expense we should go to while dealing with this idiot. So yes, I do dislike the fact we have to waste thousands of dollars in court, rather than simply killing this worthless vermin.

StlSluggers wrote:http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=naked+woman&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


Wrong link? Not sure what you were trying to show me. Lots of different stuff there.

Florida didn't "act first." According to the article, it's the only state with a law that allows for prosecution of the author of the book. Also, nobody in this thread, and with the possible exception of the author of this ridiculous book, nobody in the world, thinks child rape is okay, but nice strawman.

Drugging people and cutting them into tiny pieces is illegal (even if they are rapists). You should be arrested for advocating such things.
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Re: News of the weird/funny/pointless

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:34 pm

Madison wrote:So because Florida acted first, that means the other 49 states think the book is ok? Do I really need to point out how flawed that logic is or did you post that and simply hope I'd overlook it?

Did you read the story? The arresting sheriff states "the other 49 states may not be able to do anything about this", implying that Florida is the only state in the Union that carries the law they plan on enforcing. This, of course, begs the question, "If that Florida law can stop people from writing a book like this, and if everyone in the country pretty much agrees that books like this suck, then why don't the other 49 states have this law, too?" Of course, the answer is "They know its unconstitutional and would only result in rogue political officers wasting taxpayer money to pursue something which will eventually be overturned." But that didn't stop Florida, did it?

Madison wrote:True, the other books have faced the same legal challenged and remained available. None involve raping a child. And generally, the entire country has agreed that raping a child is wrong (until now of course).

This book doesn't involve raping a child either. I mean, I'm pretty sure he's not being arrested for raping a couple boys in preparation for writing this book. Am I wrong?

Madison wrote:As to the other child raping book, I didn't even know it existed until the news hit on the book we are discussing. I'd venture a guess I'm not the only one who had never heard of it. Regardless, I'm sure that the other book will be read by someone with the authority to prosecute, and if found to be worth prosecuting, they'll do it. Just depends on how the book is written and if it is worthwhile.
...
Sure, the public outrage is playing a part, and it should. The morals of the country play a huge part in who we are and are a big reason why laws are even made. I mean if we didn't think it was wrong to kill someone we didn't like (or better, if we didn't think it was wrong to kill worthless idiots - like pedophiles), there would be no law against murder. But our morals say it is wrong to kill, so we have a laws against it. If the government doesn't act in the ways we want them to, they will be replaced, so of course part of why Florida is prosecuting is due to the public opinion. And this idiot won't be able to hide behind "free speech" laws, as much as you might want him to be able to.

You're mixing two matters. Public outrage should create laws, not create mob justice. When the masses create an overarching law (First Amendment) that supersedes a law like the one in Florida, then creation of that law is a waste of time and an attempt to enforce it based solely on public outrage is nothing less than mob rule. Something I feel you have always had a major problem accepting is that our laws often give a single, lone person the right to do something that 999,999 people don't like. That's what separates a real society from an angry, fickle mob. Sure, it sucks. I'd love to have seen that lady who was harassing that dying little girl get dragged into the street and beaten to within an inch of her life, but our laws give her the right to be an asshole.

Ever see the movie Law Abiding Citizen? If so, remember the part where the father drugged the rapist killer and cut him into tiny pieces? That is the biggest expense we should go to while dealing with this idiot. So yes, I do dislike the fact we have to waste thousands of dollars in court, rather than simply killing this worthless vermin.

You can ignore my point about wasted money all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that going after this guy is a waste of money and someone like you should be appalled by it.

Madison wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=naked+woman&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


Wrong link? Not sure what you were trying to show me. Lots of different stuff there.

... you need to look a little closer. :-D
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