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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby Madison » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:10 am

wrveres wrote:hey, look what the cat dragged in.


Hi Wr. :-)

I hope life has been treating you well! ;-D

wrveres wrote:nahhh, this donk reminds me of kent, and you know me ... :-)

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An easy button?

:-D :-b
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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby dAnzac » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:11 am

Madison wrote:Kudos to the Rangers.
First postseason win.
First postseason series win.
First ALCS Championship.
First trip to the World Series.


I put $10 of my hard-earned money on them (@12-1), and they couldn't even beat the Giants :-C :-C
You won't be going to the post-season in 2011 }:-) }:-) ;-7



Madison wrote:And for what it is worth, I had the World Series being Philly and Texas.


Me too.
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby wrveres » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:15 am

Madison wrote:
wrveres wrote:hey, look what the cat dragged in.


Hi Wr. :-)

I hope life has been treating you well! ;-D

well, it could be better, and it could be worse ... you know how it is.

You've been missed man. I was looking for you before the Rangers clinched. I couldn't believe you were missing your golden opportunity to chest thump over the Rangers. hows the wife and kid? I hope you aren't letting him use those PED's. Its a slippery slope, next thing you know he will be accused of high treason ;-7
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby mweir145 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:15 am

Madison wrote:#1 - Why do things halfway? I mean if you want to see things happen that natural human beings can't naturally do, why not use robots or play a video game? Robots can throw faster, hit farther, etc. and in most video games, it's easy to put up crazy stats for a season. So what's the purpose of doing it halfway with players on PED's?

#1. It's not about seeing what human beings can't naturally do for me. It's all about seeing what they can do when pushed to the peak of their potential. That's what makes it more entertaining. It's a higher level of competition, and if we're going to be seeing it anyway, we might as well embrace it.

#2. You do speak of a dilemma that sports are going to reach at some point, though. It won't be long before gene doping becomes a regular part of the training regimen for most athletes (I'd say 10 years), and at some point in the not so far away future, we're going to have cyborgs competing in these sports. This is hypothetical, of course, but at that point, you might have to have a league with "natural humans" and then another where anything goes. I'd probably watch the latter of the two, it might prove to be more entertaining.

#2 - Don't you typically try to eliminate "luck" when comparing players, stats, etc? Using human beings only adds luck into the mix, which is the opposite of what you typically do, so wouldn't using robots or simulators be more accurate instead of using human players?

I would suppose they would be, but this is pretty far out of the realm of current reality.

I've never said I didn't like the element of luck in sports, though. It's often that factor that gives games their excitement. What I've said is that you need to remove luck in order to get a better picture of a team/player.

Combine those two and I really don't understand how you can take the position of being in favor of PED's in baseball.

Sorry, but I'm really not seeing any comparison or contradiction between my desire to evaluate players properly by removing luck and my libertarian drug views.

If robots were able to play baseball, sure I'd probably watch them. But unless these robots were like 10 times more personable than Wall-E, I don't think I could have the same kind of emotional attachment to them that I would have to a human being. And really, it's that emotional attachment as fans that keeps us truly interested in these games in the first place.
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby Madison » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:23 am

dAnzac wrote:
Madison wrote:Kudos to the Rangers.
First postseason win.
First postseason series win.
First ALCS Championship.
First trip to the World Series.


I put $10 of my hard-earned money on them (@12-1), and they couldn't even beat the Giants :-C :-C
You won't be going to the post-season in 2011 }:-) }:-) ;-7



Madison wrote:And for what it is worth, I had the World Series being Philly and Texas.


Me too.


The Rangers could have been swinging tree trunks and I'm not sure they'd have done much better. :-o Those were some very good pitching performances by the Giants starters and all I can do is tip my cap to them.

If we re-sign Lee, I like our chances to win the division again. B-)

Yeah, it was either Philly/Rangers or Philly/Tampa. I just couldn't see anyone else making it. I was actually happy with the Giants winning, their pitching is relatively equal to the Phillies, the big difference for me was that the Giants don't have the lineup that the Phillies did. So I liked our chances even more. Then came Timmy and Co. and pitched lights out. Ah well :-b

wrveres wrote:well, it could be better, and it could be worse ... you know how it is.

You've been missed man. I was looking for you before the Rangers clinched. I couldn't believe you were missing your golden opportunity to chest thump over the Rangers. hows the wife and kid? I hope you aren't letting him use those PED's. Its a slippery slope, next thing you know he will be accused of grand treason ;-7


Yup, I know. Life ain't easy most of the time. X-I

I appreciate it, I've missed some people as well (and yes, you're included in that :-D ). Figures I'd miss the opportunity to chest thump, but it's cool, I let the Rangers do the talking for me. ALCS Champs baby! :-)

Wife's good, kid is still killing me though. :-b He's going to be a teenager very soon. :-o :-b

Nah, he touches PED's and he knows I will break every single bone in his body, one by one. If he can't do something legitimately, there is no honor in doing it. ;-D
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby Madison » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:43 am

mweir145 wrote:#1. It's not about seeing what human beings can't naturally do for me. It's all about seeing what they can do when pushed to the peak of their potential. That's what makes it more entertaining. It's a higher level of competition, and if we're going to be seeing it anyway, we might as well embrace it.

#2. You do speak of a dilemma that sports are going to reach at some point, though. It won't be long before gene doping becomes a regular part of the training regimen for most athletes (I'd say 10 years), and at some point in the not so far away future, we're going to have cyborgs competing in these sports. This is hypothetical, of course, but at that point, you might have to have a league with "natural humans" and then another where anything goes. I'd probably watch the latter of the two, it might prove to be more entertaining.


As to #1, I still don't "get it". I mean if I want to see stuff that normal humans can't do naturally, I can see a pitching machine throw a ball 130 mph, or see a machine hit a ball 600 feet. Why would I want to do something halfway and watch a human toss a ball 110, or hit a 525 foot homer? Do it right or don't do it as far as I'm concerned. It's cool as to what you like, I'm not saying anything is wrong or bad about it, I just don't understand doing something halfway.

For #2, I'd probably watch both. I love to see what human beings are naturally capable of, but I'll admit the thought of a pitching machine throwing crazy speed and mixing pitches up with a legit possibility of compiling 162 wins and a zero ERA intrigues me. But the two leagues are completely different to me and anything between those two (like humans using PED's) is pretty much a waste, in my opinion anyway.

I would suppose they would be, but this is pretty far out of the realm of current reality.

I've never said I didn't like the element of luck in sports, though. It's often that factor that gives games their excitement. What I've said is that you need to remove luck in order to get a better picture of a team/player.


Machines would certainly be more accurate than players. Humans make mistakes (creating luck), machines don't (unless the programming is faulty).

I agree, luck does add excitement, but doesn't debating "best" this or that (best team, best pitcher, etc) make the whole thing more of a pain than it is really worth? In other words, to end the debates on "best", wouldn't the whole thing just be better with machines? Then there is no question or debate.

Sorry, but I'm really not seeing any comparison or contradiction between my desire to evaluate players properly by removing luck and my libertarian drug views.

If robots were able to play baseball, sure I'd probably watch them. But unless these robots were like 10 times more personable than Wall-E, I don't think I could have the same kind of emotional attachment to them that I would have to a human being. And really, it's that emotional attachment as fans that keeps us truly interested in these games in the first place.


Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Pink with Purple Polka Dots, none of that matters to me. :-b

What does matter to me is you spend a ton of time debating the "best", but then settle for a product that isn't the "best" and won't result in the best. Machines can and will put up better stats than humans, while also eliminating the "luck" factor. But you want to settle for inferior stats and mediocre teams (compared to machine teams) by allowing humans to play on PED's? I just don't get the logic.

I agree that the emotional attachment is a big part of any sport, but is it enough to settle for an inferior product on the field? If the inferior product was a legitimate product, I could see the appeal, but when the product is "enhanced" and still inferior to the best possible, I just don't get it.

No real worries here, I just thought I'd pick your brain because given the things you argue, wanting PED's in baseball just doesn't make any sense to me.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby dAnzac » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:15 am

Madison wrote:
If we re-sign Lee, I like our chances to win the division again. B-)



I hope you guys have a plan B then, because it looks like Ca$hman has pitched a tent on Cliff's front lawn. :-o :-o :-o
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby Madison » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:28 am

dAnzac wrote:
Madison wrote:
If we re-sign Lee, I like our chances to win the division again. B-)



I hope you guys have a plan B then, because it looks like Ca$hman has pitched a tent on Cliff's front lawn. :-o :-o :-o


Bah, that's just to drive the price up. Yankee fans spit on Lee's wife during the playoffs, there's no way she lets him sign there. :-D
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby thejusman1 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:42 am

mweir145 wrote:
thejusman1 wrote:Mweir, you are possibly the most ridiculous person I have ever had the displeasure of conversing with here at the Cafe.

That's a true pity. But there's no better time than right now to broaden your knowledge and start your education in the "ridiculous."

There is no reason for me to write a rebuttal to your comments,

And yet you still did anyway. I wonder why. :-B

However, I will try and address some of your more shocking comments.

If you find my comments shocking, it's only because you lack experience and perspective.

1. Athletes ARE role models for young kids, and their actions mold their behavior. You repeatedly refuse to see this, or at least don't understand why they should have this responsibility.

Most professional athletes are overgrown man-children, there's no way they should that kind of responsibility. If they do, that's a failing in our society, not a failing in them.

It comes with the millions of dollars in salary and being in the public spotlight.

They signed up to be athletes, not role models. They shouldn't have any obligation for other people's children.

Parents can only do so much, but if PEDs were embraced and legal in the majors, every young high school athlete would be shooting up in his high school locker room.

The problem with this theory is that PEDs have been embraced in the majors for years already (it's relatively well known by now that baseball players use steroids, greenies, etc), and this isn't happening to that extent.

Much smarter people than you or me recognize this influence as well, and that's the primary reason steroids are so taboo.

Anabolic steroids are taboo because we live in a culture where sheepish individuals believe in everything they hear from the mainstream media without taking time to find out the actual facts.

They set a bad example for the kids. PERIOD. NO ROOM FOR DEBATE.

Setting a bad example for kids isn't a justification for making such drugs illegal for adults, Helen.

But hey, if we're going to ban everything that's a bad example for kids in this world, shouldn't we get rid of alcohol too? It is, after all, a far more harmful drug than anabolic steroids.

2. The fact that you think there should be more PEDs, which would thereby reduce the lifespan of professional athletes,

Depending on what PEDs we're talking about (I'm going to assume we're referring to anabolics still), how would that reduce the lifespan of professional athletes? Do you have any proof/evidence of this effect? Where are the bodies?

MLB isn't just some mindless form of entertainment with disposable players made for your enjoyment.

Professional sports leagues and the Olympics are businesses designed to make money, and they only exist for their entertainment and profit value. This shouldn't be forgotten.

These are real people, with real lives, and to encourage such unhealthy lifestyles is really just sickening.

The pressures for athletes to take drugs already exist, and they're never going to go away. The only way to really level the playing field is to legalize. If an individual has moral misgivings about doing so, nobody is going to force him.

You NEVER hear any respected sports columnist or media voice advocating for MORE steroids in sports, because they recognize that's a dumb@ss stance, reserved for morons who don't care about the personal safeties of the players.

Under my idea, PEDs could be regulated and taken care of by team doctors. In that way, dangerously high levels of usage could be avoided much better than they are currently.

3. Kids are not GROWN ADULTS. That's why they're KIDS.

Yes, I know. That's why I differentiated between them when considering legalizing the drugs.

16 year-olds really shouldn't have to flip on the TV and watch their favorite baseball player publicly acknowledge what PED he's using and why it's been so helpful to him for his 74-homer season.

Back to the role model argument again, are we?

I bet you're one of those people who think all drugs should be legalized and that drug enforcement is a waste of time and money. The people who are going to use illegal drugs will get them one way or another anyway, right? Why bother making it illegal?

Yes, how did you know? :-D

What you fail to understand is that the laws of our society are nothing more than a reflection of our majority values, and the majority disagree with you.

I think others have addressed this, but that doesn't make the majority right. It just makes them the majority (and a tyrannical one at that). Minority rights (especially the freedom to do whatever you want to your own body) should be protected.

They think illegal drugs, whether it be PEDs or crack cocaine, foster a bad culture and should not be tolerated or encouraged. True, we may be fighting a losing battle on some fronts, but it's important to keep our values consistent with our laws.

But if this society is all about protecting people, why the double standard with alcohol and smoking? We allow those people to take risks with their bodies, but not athletes? Why are athletes the only people not allowed the freedom to make that choice (even when it involves their livelihood)?

We don't tolerate PEDs, and we don't tolerate the cheaters who use them.

And yet society tolerates others using PEDs in other aspects in life. Come exam time, I see many students taking amphetamines in order to focus and stay awake for their tests. Are those not performance enhancers in the same way that athletes using steroids? Why is one frowned upon and not the other?

Go rent this instead and jerk off to it, and leave the real baseball to us.

Barry Bonds is the home run champion, and one of the greatest players to ever play the game. He is baseball.


An entire response composed of drivel and nonsense. You are simply a troll. You first three comments are just insults, so I'll just try and answer some of your "rebuttals." First of all, I think I explained in previous posts why professional athletes become role models for kids. You may not think they have that kind of responsibility, but it does largely exist. For hard-working, gifted athletes who legitimately achieve their success through years of dedication and non-PED use, why shouldn't they pose as role models for impressionable youths? It doesn't matter what they "signed up" for, it's the responsibility they must carry.

While PED-use has been prevalent in the majors for over a decade now, it's not fully out in the open and embraced. The system you're advocating would leave little option to even those who choose not to use PEDs to turn them down.

This fascination with trying to link alcohol and tobacco to illicit drugs is absurd. Both these substances have deep historical connections and reinforce my original point that society makes laws which confirm their values and beliefs. If Jesus smoked a doobie and the pilgrims planted marijuana, weed would be legal everywhere. Hell, I know it seems like a double standard, but that's just the way it is and our laws are full of double standards. If you believe a life is a life is a life, what's the difference between early abortions and trimester abortions?

Again, I do not claim to be a medical professional. I heavily doubt you are too. I'm not going to go into specifics about certain PEDs or others. There's no doubt that some anabolic steroids are helpful in medicine and recovery, for pro athletes and the general populace alike. I don't think these are the issue as much as steroids are, which have been known to shorten the lifespans of those who use them.

Even as a minority, you are not entitled to certain rights in this country. Sorry, that's just the brutal truth. Want to secede from the union because you don't believe in our foreign wars and don't want to pay taxes to support them? Got a couple thousand like-minded people who agree with you? Sorry, won't happen. You can argue about the tyranny of the majority all you want, but I'd much rather live in our society where the biggest voice has the final say than one in which an "enlightened few" make all the rules (also known as fascism/dictatorship/communism).
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Re: The Play-Off Thoooouuggghhhttss Thread

Postby thejusman1 » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:45 am

wrveres wrote:
thejusman1 wrote: Are you really comparing the constitutional violations of African-American disenfranchisement, discrimination, and segregation to illicit drug use? Really?

I don't understand why you would be shocked at anybodies argument ? you accused somebody of being a rapist. That pretty much takes the cake.


Wrveres, that "rape, murder, high treason" remark was meant to be taken as a joke. Hyperbole. I thought it would be self-evident when I included high treason (who gets convicted of high treason nowadays!?!?) I guess that flew over your head. I don't know what's a bigger failure, your comprehension of sarcasm or the Padres' choke-job in the regular season.
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