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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby urbanbreez » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:15 pm

knapplc wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
knapplc wrote:This is dumb. You can burn a flag but not the Quran? I presume that would also cover the Torah, the Bible, and any other religious text? And his argument is that doing so would constitute shouting fire in a theater?

Well, the US isn't at war with Christian or Jewish fundamentalists, and there is pretty much no possible situation where burning our own flag would inspire our enemies to recruit more people and to kill more of our soldiers. Just pissing off our enemies for the sake of pissing off our enemies has like no positive outcome.

I'm personally not offended by anything like this but if it puts our soldiers at risk for literally no benefit, then I have to be against it. Not sure if I'd resort to legal action, but the stance is definitely justifiable.

I understand this angle, and I am totally against putting our soldiers at more risk than we need to, but... they're soldiers. There's an implied risk in the gig from day one.

Freedom of Speech is a fundamental right, one of the most important ones we have. If we abrogate that right today it's still abrogated tomorrow, or the day after we make peace with Islam (playing along with this). Once suspended, those rights are very hard to regain, and frankly I don't trust either of the two parties we have entrenched in power right now to voluntarily give those rights back to us when the crisis is over.

I'm with you here. It's not like insurgents have been going at it half assed and this is going to be the thing to really piss them off. It's already a Jihad. How much more risk are we actually talking about? It's already about as risky as it's ever been to be an American in Iraq or Afghanistan and it just gives those oppose to our way of life a moral victory by restricting a right that has been guaranteed by the the constitutio...I'm hungry what should I get for lunch?
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby Metroid » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:23 pm

urbanbreez wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:Well, the US isn't at war with Christian or Jewish fundamentalists, and there is pretty much no possible situation where burning our own flag would inspire our enemies to recruit more people and to kill more of our soldiers. Just pissing off our enemies for the sake of pissing off our enemies has like no positive outcome.

I'm personally not offended by anything like this but if it puts our soldiers at risk for literally no benefit, then I have to be against it. Not sure if I'd resort to legal action, but the stance is definitely justifiable.

I understand this angle, and I am totally against putting our soldiers at more risk than we need to, but... they're soldiers. There's an implied risk in the gig from day one.

Freedom of Speech is a fundamental right, one of the most important ones we have. If we abrogate that right today it's still abrogated tomorrow, or the day after we make peace with Islam (playing along with this). Once suspended, those rights are very hard to regain, and frankly I don't trust either of the two parties we have entrenched in power right now to voluntarily give those rights back to us when the crisis is over.

I'm with you here. It's not like insurgents have been going at it half assed and this is going to be the thing to really piss them off. It's already a Jihad. How much more risk are we actually talking about? It's already about as risky as it's ever been to be an American in Iraq or Afghanistan and it just gives those oppose to our way of life a moral victory by restricting a right that has been guaranteed by the the constitutio...I'm hungry what should I get for lunch?

Double jihad? :-?

Whoa...double jihad all the way. What does it mean? :-B
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby The Artful Dodger » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:31 pm

I'll concur with what's been said here. It should be a constitutional right to burn a flag or any religious text. That of course, doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:49 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Saying "you shouldn't burn religious texts just to piss off practitioners of that religion" is a justifiable stance. Saying "the constitution should prohibit the burning of religious texts because it will likely piss off practitioners of that religion" isn't, in my opinion, of course.

Well yeah, but this seems to no purpose other than pissing off any and all practitioners of the religion and trying to make them feel inferior just for...no reason.
knapplc wrote:I understand this angle, and I am totally against putting our soldiers at more risk than we need to, but... they're soldiers. There's an implied risk in the gig from day one.

Freedom of Speech is a fundamental right, one of the most important ones we have. If we abrogate that right today it's still abrogated tomorrow, or the day after we make peace with Islam (playing along with this). Once suspended, those rights are very hard to regain, and frankly I don't trust either of the two parties we have entrenched in power right now to voluntarily give those rights back to us when the crisis is over.

Just because our soldiers are already at risk doesn't mean that they can't be more at risk. Burning the Qurans would likely stall or even reverse any headway into peace efforts, since it would make reconciliatory messages seem disingenuous. And for what benefit? In the original case where the crowded theater metaphor was brought up, it was in the context of passing out anti-draft leaflets. If nothing else, it was advocating saving the lives of the Americans that were handed the leaflets. How could burning Qurans possibly save lives?

Like I said, I think it's a stupid, terrible idea, but still I'm not sure if I'd take this to court. I just don't think the idea of taking it to court is ridiculous. If I lived there, I'd make a show of throwing a few Bibles into the pit though. :-D
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby GreenMtn! » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:16 pm

The burning of a Quran or Bible or Flag isn't a matter of freedom of speech. It's a matter of property rights. If you own something, you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want with it as long as it doesn't violate anyone else's rights in the process. All natural rights are based on property rights, e.g., you own your own body --> you own the product of your own labor --> you own property.

Stephen Breyer is the same Justice who decided it is ok for the government to take someone's property and give it to a corporation if that corporation will bring in more taxes. It's clear that he doesn't respect individual rights.
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby StlSluggers » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:16 pm

GreenMtn! wrote:Stephen Breyer is the same Justice who decided it is ok for the government to take someone's property and give it to a corporation if that corporation will bring in more taxes. It's clear that he doesn't respect individual rights.

To be fair, there were at least 5 total justices who voted in favor of that, no?
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby kaveman » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:34 pm

"Believe me, there is nothing more precious to Muslims than the Quran, and watching people toss it into fire, will be horrifying. I would rather burn in fire myself, than watch a Quran burn.
I am amazed at how millions of Americans who are decent and honorable can watch this happen. No matter how ugly the act the Constitution permits this, is not an acceptable excuse. The Constitution does not permit this. The Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. For Muslims this is worse than torture."
Director, Islamic Studies, U. of Delaware Muqtedar Khan
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/muqtedar_khan/2010/09/the_quran_burning_sign_of_things_to_come.html?hpid=topnews
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby knapplc » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:29 pm

GreenMtn! wrote:The burning of a Quran or Bible or Flag isn't a matter of freedom of speech.

Yes it is, as defined by decades of court rulings.
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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby dAnzac » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:12 pm

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Re: Surpreme Court Justics Not Sure Burning Quran is a Right

Postby urbanbreez » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:23 pm

Just because our soldiers are already at risk doesn't mean that they can't be more at risk. Burning the Qurans would likely stall or even reverse any headway into peace efforts, since it would make reconciliatory messages seem disingenuous.


implying there can be any headway into peace between insurgents or Alvin Kada and American forces lol.
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