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Why the hate for Loaiza???

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Postby inkubus » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:44 am

My mistake, it was right-handed batters that hit .192 off of him.
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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:51 am

inkubus wrote:My mistake, it was right-handed batters that hit .192 off of him.


Ok, cool. We all make a mistake here and there. I was worried that maybe I was the one that made the mistake in my notes about him. :-o

Thanks for the clarification. ;-D
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Postby mkooljr1 » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:05 am

Madison wrote:So far, no one has been able to make a convincing stand as to why he will succeed next year. They give one or two of those reasons and try to stand on it. I've been waiting this whole offseason for someone to convince me I'm wrong.

I'm not sure what else could possibly convince you. Last year, Loaiza improved his K/9 from 5.3 to 8.2!!! Do you have any idea what that means? Obviously not, coz you are clearly discounting this improvement. His K/9 was 8th in the majors amongst starting pitchers. His walk rate remained about the same, an already very good 2.2. And his HR/9 improved from 1.0 to .7. His K/BB ratio, which had always been very solid throughout his career (a sign of a potential breakout before 2003) improved from a very good 2.5 to 3.7. Yes, 3.7 folks. 11th best in the MAJORS amongst starting pitchers. Better than Kevin Brown, Mark Mulder, Matt Morris, Kerry Wood, Tim Hudson, Bartolo Colon and Kevin Millwood. Those are some pretty good pitchers, eh? Then you factor in a very good offense behind him for good run support and realize he's still pitching in a terrible hitting division with probably the worst set of pitchers of any division, and i'd love to hear a reason NOT to think he'll come close to repeating next year. And for the record, he added 2 pitches, not just 1. Thank you, and may the anti-Loaiza club and Madison begin its retort.
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Postby inkubus » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:06 am

Madison wrote:
inkubus wrote:My mistake, it was right-handed batters that hit .192 off of him.


Ok, cool. We all make a mistake here and there.


Yeah, it usually happens yearly for me. ;-7
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Postby Sticky Spice » Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:22 am

I love talking about Esteban Loaiza because I own him in my money league, but this is ridiculous. He's like Lord of the Threads or something.

How bout we put this baby to bed and let the season settle the argument.

As for if anyone drafted him last year, I drafted him for $1, but keep in mind it's a 20-team league. I had him in a tier with Garrett Stephenson and Pete Walker. I lost out on Stephenson but also got Petey for $1. !+)

You win some you lose some ;-D
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Postby DK » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:59 am

Madison and I have agreed to disagree on this topic. He says 12 wins and a 4+ ERA, I say 14+ and a 3.75.

I'm not getting into this again.
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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:05 pm

mkooljr1 wrote:I'm not sure what else could possibly convince you. Last year, Loaiza improved his K/9 from 5.3 to 8.2!!! Do you have any idea what that means? Obviously not, coz you are clearly discounting this improvement. His K/9 was 8th in the majors amongst starting pitchers. His walk rate remained about the same, an already very good 2.2. And his HR/9 improved from 1.0 to .7. His K/BB ratio, which had always been very solid throughout his career (a sign of a potential breakout before 2003) improved from a very good 2.5 to 3.7. Yes, 3.7 folks. 11th best in the MAJORS amongst starting pitchers. Better than Kevin Brown, Mark Mulder, Matt Morris, Kerry Wood, Tim Hudson, Bartolo Colon and Kevin Millwood. Those are some pretty good pitchers, eh? Then you factor in a very good offense behind him for good run support and realize he's still pitching in a terrible hitting division with probably the worst set of pitchers of any division, and i'd love to hear a reason NOT to think he'll come close to repeating next year. And for the record, he added 2 pitches, not just 1. Thank you, and may the anti-Loaiza club and Madison begin its retort.


Yes, I'm aware of what his k rate means. Evidently you think more of it than I do, but I will say there's more to pitching than strikeouts. Look at Halladay for example. He pitched 40 more innings with 3 less strikeouts, yet his WHIP was less than Loaiza's. Sure, k's are great and are important, but they are not the only measuring stick to use.

Yes, some of Loaiza's other numbers were better, but isn't that expected when someone has a career year?

As to the division, yes, last year it was pretty pathetic. Guess what though, Detroit is a better team this year (yes, I said that), the kids in Cleveland have a little more experience under their belts, KC has beefed up and healthy, and Minnesota didn't do anything. The division isn't as poor as it was last year.

Sure, Loaiza will have run support, but all that affects is wins. Would you want a pitcher who wins 15 games with a 4 era? Not me. Guess that's why I've never owned Pettitte.

2 new pitches? I've seen this a couple of times this week. Provide a link. It's been discussed since the All-Star break of last year that Loaiza added 1 new pitch, a cut fastball, not 2. There are countless threads about it and I've not seen a single article that says otherwise. Maybe it's something he added this offseason because it's certainly not something he had last year. If he did in fact add a new pitch this offseason, then I admit that this season will be even more interesting and he could surprise me.

Something you seem to discredit is the fact that I do believe that Loaiza will have his best season ever (not including last year). Why is it so hard to believe that he just simply had a career year in a division that was extremely weak? I do believe he's a better pitcher now, than he has been in the past and I even give him that credit when I say 4+ era and 12 wins. You react like I'm saying he will have an era of 10 and win 2 games. I'm actually saying that he will do well for Loaiza. Just because I believe he will hurt most fantasy owners rather than help them doesn't mean that I don't like the guy. Just looking at facts, figures, and the situation without any bias whatsoever. Why is that such a bad thing?

Anyway, I've tried to just let the whole "What will Loaiza do" situation die and go away many times. Unfortunately, new threads are made on the topic, I give my response, and someone takes it personally. Part of life I guess, but it's really boring discussing the same thing over and over again. I know more about Loaiza than I ever wanted to. Lol. :-D

Oh yeah, if you have a link about the other new pitch, I wouldn't mind reading it. I haven't seen a single thing about it, but I haven't read much about him the last month or so. It's got to be something he just added though, or it would have been discussed last season when all the articles came out discussing his one new pitch, the cut fastball. Thanks.
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Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby Guest » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:44 pm

From CBS- mentions Loaiza's two new pitches

PRESEASON FANTASY OUTLOOK

The Fantasy sleeper of the year, Loaiza rose out of nowhere, parlaying a spring-training invitation into a 21-win, Cy Young-caliber campaign with the White Sox last season. What made the difference for the journeyman right-hander was two added pitches: A cut fastball and a split-finger fastball, which helped keep opposing hitters off-balance. With a winter for opposing scouts to analyze Loaiza's newfound abilities, he's unlikely to repeat the effort this year. If you pay elite-starter prices, he's going to be a Fantasy bust. If you prepare for a dropoff, along the lines of Loaiza's 10-4 record and 3.84 ERA in 15 second-half last year, then he's a respectable option to consider in the middle of your staff. (Updated 1/16/04)
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Postby Madison » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:58 pm

Anonymous wrote:From CBS- mentions Loaiza's two new pitches

PRESEASON FANTASY OUTLOOK

The Fantasy sleeper of the year, Loaiza rose out of nowhere, parlaying a spring-training invitation into a 21-win, Cy Young-caliber campaign with the White Sox last season. What made the difference for the journeyman right-hander was two added pitches: A cut fastball and a split-finger fastball, which helped keep opposing hitters off-balance. With a winter for opposing scouts to analyze Loaiza's newfound abilities, he's unlikely to repeat the effort this year. If you pay elite-starter prices, he's going to be a Fantasy bust. If you prepare for a dropoff, along the lines of Loaiza's 10-4 record and 3.84 ERA in 15 second-half last year, then he's a respectable option to consider in the middle of your staff. (Updated 1/16/04)


Thanks! ;-D

Guess they are admitting that they dropped the ball when they only reported one new pitch last year. I know I read many Sportsline reports on him and not one of them mentioned the second pitch.

I do appreciate the article. Thanks. ;-D

Mkooljr might not agree with their assessment of what to expect next year from him though. :-D (Meant in good fun, not a jab at you Mkooljr). Check the threads, I've not insulted a single Loaiza supporter in any of them. ;-)
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
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Postby franklinsauce » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:05 pm

Every opinion has been beaten to death here...simply put, Loaiza is not a great, but he's now good. He won't be a stud again, but he should be a good 3rd SP...

I am bothered more by those who seem to think that people hate Loaiza because fantasy baseball players didn't see it coming, and are jealous...are you on crack? Look, going by statistics is how fantasy baseball works. It's a game of statistics, and knowledge. Loaiza was one of 20 pitchers who could have broken out last year.

He was a risk, and most people who watched picked him up as a promising player who was having a great year....has nothing to do with this jaded fantasy baseball stereotype.
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