Why the hate for Loaiza??? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Why the hate for Loaiza???

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby LBJackal » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:09 pm

Loaiza has been talked about enough. I havn't seen any valid arguments (although I've seen many opinions not based on much except that he did bad before).

He learned a new pitch. Sure, lots of people learn new pitches. Not many have huge jumps in success like Loaiza, but since Loaiza did, why assume he'll regress to the same increase that the average new-pitch-learner has? The cutter significantly improved his game. He still has the cutter. Why people expect stats like he had without this pitch is beyond me. He had a bad 2 week span late in the season (partially due to pitching way more innings than he ever has) and people use that as proof that the entire year was a fluke. If every pitcher who wasn't consistently good during every week or month of the season was deemed not good, there would be very few, if any pitchers who meet these naysayers' standards. We'll see during the season though. I've got a stock-pile of crow for all of the Loaiza haters, so don't ruin your appetites.
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9196
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby The Jury » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:53 pm

Loaiza wasn't a fluke last year.. when things change, the surrounding environment is affected. In this case, Loaiza "stuff" changed as he added a couple new looks to his arsenal, hitters were not previously exposed to the updated version of Loaiza and took a while to adapt to the change. Obviously if hitters aren't accustomed to a pitcher and then they'll strike out more often than if they had the guy scouted out. As the season wore on, the scouting reports on Loaiza lengthened and hitters began to (or did) solve Loaiza, which is evident in general through his ERA splits. Thus, last year was not a fluke - Loaiza souped up and hitters were caught off guard. With the changes, Loiaza as of last year is a better pitcher than he was before he joined the White Sox, but he's probably not an outstanding pitcher.
[quote:4fef447375="Geek"]The odds of the AL MVP coming from the American League are looking pretty good.[/quote]
The Jury
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3328
Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby colour wolf » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:09 pm

LBJackal wrote:I've got a stock-pile of crow for all of the Loaiza haters, so don't ruin your appetites.


:-D
colour wolf
College Coach
College Coach


Posts: 259
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Tokyo

Postby inkubus » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:12 pm

Tidbit: batters had a .192 average against Loaiza in 2003.
Last edited by inkubus on Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
inkubus
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar
Graphics Expert
Posts: 644
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Tampa

Postby Mookie4ever » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:15 pm

inkubus wrote:Tidbit: batters had a .192 ERA against Loaiza in 2003.


I don't know many batters with good ERAs - Olerud was pretty good in college though.
Image
Mookie4ever
Head Moderator
Head Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterHockey ModBasketball ModFootball ModMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 19545
(Past Year: 277)
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Hakuna, Montana

Postby jumpman8288 » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:23 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
inkubus wrote:Tidbit: batters had a .192 ERA against Loaiza in 2003.


I don't know many batters with good ERAs - Olerud was pretty good in college though.


lol

Remember Wade Boggs a couple years back with the Yanks?
[URL=http://http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7158944067217702636&q=new+born+muse]MUSE ROCK[/URL]
jumpman8288
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1607
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby MauroGozzo » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:28 pm

Any Jays fan hates him. He's lazy. When he's got a nice contract, he just throws his 5 1/3 and goes home. In my opinion, he's the kind of player who needs heavy contract incentives to pitch up to his potential.
MauroGozzo
Little League Legend
Little League Legend

User avatar

Posts: 22
Joined: 5 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby LBJackal » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:34 pm

Not every Jays fan :-D

But I do wish he learned the cutter while he was in Toronto.
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9196
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby Madison » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:06 am

mkooljr1 wrote:Ya know, I've read most of the threads and posts from the trillion made about Loaiza and I never posted my thoughts, but after seeing Madison with his opinion over and over again, i had to jump in. You keep bringing up his 2nd half era and his past statistics, and then say no more than 12 wins and a 4+ era. I find it very funny that you have been given the icon for "fantasy expert" to tell you the truth. Have you bothered to look at the fact his K rate actually improved in the 2nd half? It went from 7.32 to 9.46!! His walk rate increased slightly, and so did his HR rate, but that's a huge improvement in his K rate in the 2nd half, considering his 1st half was already a huge improvement over previous years. So if anything, his 2nd half proves he WASN'T a fluke. You make no mention of any of his peripheral stats, which mean a lot more than era alone. Defense and a pitcher's bullpen, in addition to a bunch of other factors, influence a pitcher's era of which a pitcher has no control over. So choosing to just look at era is a sure-fire way to evaluate pitchers poorly. But if you all wanna avoid Loaiza, be my guest, but i'll be riding him for another year of great stats in my league.


Believe it or not, the one player that took up the most time for me last year was in fact Loaiza. I studied and read everything that I could get my hands on concerning him. I wanted to know if he was in fact for real. I found very little to suggest that his success would continue.

Ok, so his k rate went up the second half. And? Era was higher, BAA was higher, BB/IP was higher, innings per start were down, etc. 1 stat got better and now he's good? Personally, that doesn't sell me as to future success for him. I need more and there are too many question marks.

Something that I don't think you are aware of, and maybe you are but I'll point it out anyway, is that a 4 era and 12 wins would be Loaiza's best season ever not including last year. Check his numbers for yourself. Without last year, Loaiza would have been happy to have a 4 era and 12 wins so I'm not saying that he will fall flat on his face and have a 5 era and 8 wins. Simply saying that he was over his head and that he won't continue that level of success.

I'm glad that you are solid in your opinion. Shows character. Just like I'm solid in mine and I can agree to disagree with you without any insults. If you would like to try and convince me using something other than the one new pitch, his k rate, and his division, then I'd love to discuss it with you. I've seen and studied all three of those factors and still believe a 4 era and 12 wins is what to expect. So far, no one has been able to make a convincing stand as to why he will succeed next year. They give one or two of those reasons and try to stand on it. I've been waiting this whole offseason for someone to convince me I'm wrong. New pitching options are always a good thing right? I'd like to move him off my Do Not Draft List, but I've got absolutely no reason to. Maybe you know something I don't about him, or have some stats that I've overlooked?

Inkubus wrote:Tidbit: batters had a .192 average against Loaiza in 2003.


According to Yahoo stats, BAA for Loaiza was .223 the first half and .245 the second half for a combined .233.

LBJackal wrote:I've got a stock-pile of crow for all of the Loaiza haters, so don't ruin your appetites.


If I'm wrong, then I'm man enough to eat my crow. It's happened before, and will happen again. I feel like I'm safe on this one though. ;-)
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby Madison » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:37 am

inkubus wrote:Tidbit: batters had a .192 average against Loaiza in 2003.


I got curious as to if Yahoo was incorrect on the stat. Yahoo, Sportsline, and ESPN all list Loaiza as having a .233 BAA last year. Unusual for a site to blow a stat that badly. Do you remember where you saw it so the rest of us know to double check that site's numbers?
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Friday, Oct. 24
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Kansas City at San Francisco
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact