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Poor Cleveland

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Poor Cleveland

Postby joejlitz » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:45 am

Looks like Cleveland's prospects from the Cliff Lee deal aren't panning out.
. Here's a status report on the four Phillies prospects who were traded to Cleveland in the Cliff Lee deal last July: Jason Donald has started 25 games at shortstop and four at second base. He's batting .245. Lou Marson opened the season as the everyday catcher but was demoted to Triple A Columbus on June 11 when hot prospect Carlos Santana was recalled. He was batting .191 at the time. Righthander Carlos Carrasco is 5-3, 4.29 for the Clippers. And righthander Jason Knapp continues to rehab after shoulder surgery.

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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby Grounded Polo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:00 pm

It seems like these deals where an ace gets traded either turns out really good prospects like Haren for Oakland or the other teams ends up with nothing like CC, Johan, and this Lee trade.

The Doc/Lee trade should yield something good.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby Pogotheostrich » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:34 pm

Am I the only one that thought this was going to be a Lebron post?
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby heyeaglefn » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:35 pm

The prospects that Philly got in the Lee deal in Seattle have been just as bad. Could turn out to be one of the worst trades in Philadelphia history.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby jake_twothousandfive » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:23 pm

Donald isn't looking too bad. He hit .245 in the majors which is why he was sent down. He's hitting .277 in the minors. Looks like he's playing pretty well...just not hitting lefties.

Knapp has a heck of a lot of potential. He's only 19 years old. I'm pretty sure Cleveland traded for him after the injury so they knew what they were getting.

There's no defending Lou Marson, he's playing like crap. But the Indians can give him plenty of time to try and develop in the minors with Carlos Santana as the present and future and Mike Redmond as a decent short term backup.

Carrasco has a HR/FB rate of 14.1% which is well above his 9.7% career average and is definitely pushing his ERA up a bit. Sounds like he has significantly less potential than Knapp but still enough to warrant giving a good long look. And he may be replacing David Huff (just sent down to AAA) in the Cleveland rotation.

Prospects take time to develop. The Indians are in rebuilding mode. So you can't call this a terrible deal for the them just yet. Revisit this in a few years.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby mweir145 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:48 pm

heyeaglefn wrote:The prospects that Philly got in the Lee deal in Seattle have been just as bad. Could turn out to be one of the worst trades in Philadelphia history.

It didn't make any sense at the time and makes even less sense now.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby Zito is God » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:36 pm

Grounded Polo wrote:It seems like these deals where an ace gets traded either turns out really good prospects like Haren for Oakland or the other teams ends up with nothing like CC, Johan, and this Lee trade.

The Doc/Lee trade should yield something good.



The Bartolo Colon trade worked out just fine for the Indians. They did end up sending Phillips packing for next to nothing, but at least they kept Lee. I do agree though, they got absolutely no value for Lee which was surprising.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby jswede » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:30 pm

I'll take this one.

Poor Cleveland is right. $38.6mil of a $61.4mil payroll is tied up in a guy coming off tommy-john and missing the last 1 and 5/6 of a season coming into this year (Westbrook), a 2006 MVP candidate (played only the first 5 mos that year) who's then signed a huge contract only to fade into injury and obscurity as a below average clean-up man (Hafner), an All-Star closer in 2008 as a Cub only to sign with Cle and collect all of 25 saves in the last one-and-near-one-half seasons (Wood), and Grady Sizemore (out for year). Talk about a "bad hand".

But.. as a CLE fan, I've been keeping up on the trades and what's going on on the farm - we have to, us Indians fans. Rebuilding is always - these days - right around the corner. I read a great piece touching on the trades the other day, I reference below.

The Indians are in a spot where they have to trade major talent - top-of-their-game talent - for masses of uber-young pre-prospects, hope they strike gold and a reasonable 1st multi-year contract on a couple, then tie that in a few cheap (mostly left-for-dead or past-their-prime) FA veterans, and hope to compete every few years, for a few years.. only to trade the best ones after 2-3 seasons.

I think the original poster, and a few others, are short sighted regarding the Indians trades. They only just happened. The Lee and Victor trades happened well less than a season ago.

I was reminded of several things in a recent piece on Diatribe.com (a great Indians blog) regarding their last several trades (stats/quotes courtesy of Diatribe):

2 1/2 YEARS after the famous Colon for Size/Phillips/Cliff (respectively 23/19/21yrs old at the time) trade, (from Diatribe.com) "the Indians had 'enjoyed' an OPS of .556 from Brandon Phillips in 136 MLB games, a 4.88 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP from Cliff Lee in 44 starts, and had received 159 plate appearances from Grady Sizemore." That's a Cy Young, 3x All-Star, and a more-than-solid SS (4 straight years of 23+ SB, 17+ HR, .275 overall avg) in the last 5yrs. That was 2004, 3 before they made the first 'real' impact (if you can even call it that at 3yrs) when they were 26, 22 and 24.

"Speaking of DeRosa, does anyone else marvel that the Indians were able to turn 3 months of him into what looks like their Future Closer (who probably should be their Present Closer) in Chris F. Perez and into Jess Todd, who is now sitting on an ERA of 3.58 in Columbus after a rough start to the year, striking out more than a batter an inning in AAA?"
>> 3mos of DeRosa = 24yr old 'closer of the future' and 24yr old 9+K/inn AAA reliever.

Whereas the Lee deal is so early, but admittedly not-exciting-so-far: "...label Jason Donald a “future Utility IF” or bemoan the fact that Lou Marson is already destined for a back-up position (not realizing... he currently ranks 3rd in MLB by gunning down 38% of would be base stealers...), or point to Carlos Carrasco’s inconsistency while pointing out that Jason Knapp has yet to throw a pitch in the Cleveland organization" (elbow surgery for Happ).
>> btw, they are 25/24/23/19 years old. Lee = 4 very young, very high ceiling prospects.

There's the 2008 Casey Blake trade - yielded 24yr old Carlos Santana. Personally, however biased, I'd say a future top 3 Catcher.
>> slightly above average 3B + plus partial-year remaining salary = looking like the next V-mart.

Then the best one... V-mart for Hagadone, Masterson, and Price: 25yr old Masterson shifted his arm angle about 6 weeks ago, and has been very efficient (incl CG 6k shut-out of BOS) since, while 24yr old "Nick Hagadone, has put up cumulative 2010 [AAA] numbers of a 2.86 ERA.. 57 K to 38 BB in 50 2/3 IP ...projects either to the front of the rotation or the back end of the bullpen", and lastly 23yr old Bryan Price, "Currently, he sits in the bullpen in (AA) Akron and has struck out 30 hitters while walking just 5 in the 25 innings [he's worked]"...
>> not bad less than 11mos in, and with Vmart's expiring contract...

Shapiro has a bad hand, and that's understating it, but give a little time....
Last edited by jswede on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby RedHopeful » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:54 pm

^nice post^ ;-D
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Re: Poor Cleveland

Postby Zito is God » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:47 am

Nice post.

I was wondering what you thought of the Indians fire sale. It is well known that they will look to deal wood and maybe Branyan if there re any takers for whatever they can get, bu do you see any chance they move the slumping (terribly might I add) Sizemore anytime soon? I doubt a team will take him until they see him recover from surgery, but he is such a well known talent and has so many Cleveland fans that I doubt him leaving would net enough prospects (especially because of just how badly he has slumped) to outweigh the loss of fan support/ticket sales based on the town loving him.
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