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Personal Favorite SS: Builder

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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby jake_twothousandfive » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:17 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:Image

That chart is pretty misleading considering there are three clear outliner plots from ARod which are probably from his first two seasons where he played 65 games combined and this season where he hasn't gotten going yet. Cumulative WAR by Age would probably tell a different story. Don't get me wrong, I hate ARod, but his greatness is undeniable.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby lastingsgriller » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:23 pm

I chose this chart to show that at their very best Ripken and Scmiidt are just as good, if not better than A-Rod. I personally believe that A-Rod is better, but just wanted to mention that there is an argument to be made anyways..
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby jfg » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:31 pm

I'll never understand the hatred for ARod. I'm as big of a Yankee hater as the rest, but other than the steroids thing I have never been given a reason to hate him. Is it just because he makes a ton of money and wears a pinstriped uniform? He might be standoffish to reporters but I could really care less about that, most of them deserve it. All I care about is his on field play and that he's not a criminal off the field.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby jake_twothousandfive » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:39 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:I chose this chart to show that at their very best Ripken and Scmiidt are just as good, if not better than A-Rod. I personally believe that A-Rod is better, but just wanted to mention that there is an argument to be made anyways..

You could find more people with one or two of their very best years ahead of ARod in terms of WAR. But far fewer who can sustain that level of production like he does. Just based on that chart, Ripken doesn't look very close to ARod.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:00 pm

jake_twothousandfive wrote:
lastingsgriller wrote:I chose this chart to show that at their very best Ripken and Scmiidt are just as good, if not better than A-Rod. I personally believe that A-Rod is better, but just wanted to mention that there is an argument to be made anyways..

You could find more people with one or two of their very best years ahead of ARod in terms of WAR. But far fewer who can sustain that level of production like he does. Just based on that chart, Ripken doesn't look very close to ARod.


Take away Ripken's games played streak and I wager to say that Larkin, if he played in a better market, would be atop this list. First 30/30 SS and took the mantle away from Ozzie as the best NL shortstop.
Last edited by Havok1517 on Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby neoforce » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:19 pm

Just a thought... should we move commentary over to the commentary thread instead of here?

Now I'll break my own rule... Could someone please put a second vote on Pee Wee or Buddy? I know I'm an old geezer (never saw Pee Wee play, I'm not that old!) but they have such sentimental value to me I'd love to see them at least get to +2.

Now back to your previously scheduled A-Rod commentary.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby jfg » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:30 pm

Nah, commentary is fine in here. It keeps it interesting. Going camping this weekend so voting will be open until Sunday night.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby thedude » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:32 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:
thedude wrote:
jake_twothousandfive wrote:He should win either SS or 3B. If you consider what he has done at each position separately in terms of production he's probably the best SS ever and in the top 5 at 3B. Pretty ridiculous.


Nah Honus Wagner was better. Ole Honus was without a doubt better with the glove, better on the bases, and an arguement can be made Honus was A-rod's equal with the bat (he won 8 batting titles in his career).


how on earth could you possibly know that Honus Wagner was better than Alex Rodriguez with the glove or better on the bases? did you see him play? do you know someone that has seen him play? are you speculating this because you like honus Wagner? :-?


First, contemporary accounts of Wagner report that he was the best shortstop of that era. No one would argue that Rodriguez is the best defensive shortstop of this era. Additionally, the contemporary accounts note that Wagner was a terror on the base paths.

Second, and more importantly, the numbers show that Wagner was a superior player. Wagner has a career high of 20.0 fielding runs above replacement. A-Rod’s career high was 16.00. Wagner had 5 years of 10+ plus Fielding Runs above Replacement. A-Rod had 3.

Wagner had 722 career stolen bases. A-Rod has 299.

Also Wagner’s career high in batting runs above replacement was 73.1. A-Rod’s (at short) was 64.8.

Wagner won 8 batting titles.

Wagner’s career high in WAR was 12.9. A-Rod’s is 9.8.

Finally:
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby jake_twothousandfive » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:41 pm

How is WAR estimated for historical players? UZR data doesn't go back nearly that far.
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Re: Personal Favorite SS: Builder

Postby thedude » Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:43 pm

jake_twothousandfive wrote:How is WAR estimated for historical players? UZR data doesn't go back nearly that far.


Big Pimpin wrote:TotalZone, as described here. It's the defensive metric used in Chone's historical WAR database.
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