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Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

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Who is worth more Wins?

Franklin Gutierrez
24
44%
Miguel Cabrera
30
56%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:06 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:So I conclude that the only team that could go undefeated is a team that is perfect at preventing runs. So... Defense! :-B And pitching. :-D


That's crazy, because I have concluded that the only team that could go undefeated is a team that is perfect at producing runs. So... Offense! :-b
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:18 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:So I conclude that the only team that could go undefeated is a team that is perfect at preventing runs. So... Defense! :-B And pitching. :-D


That's crazy, because I have concluded that the only team that could go undefeated is a team that is perfect at producing runs. So... Offense! :-b


Except that when they play the team that's perfect at preventing runs, they can't score! Therefore, defense wins! :-B :-b
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby lastingsgriller » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:48 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:Where's the "too close to call" option?


lastingsgriller wrote:I doubt any GM's would start a team by picking FraGu over MCab, but:


Considering that the one that plays the easiest position to fill is being paid ~$130M over the next six years and the other who plays a much more difficult position is being paid ~$25M over the next five, I believe that you're wrong.


well, you see I never said a word about money. I'm just takling about players. $$'s are not accounted for in WAR. but what these $$'s do show you is that teams are willing to pay a cabrera about $22 million/year where as a gutierrez-type is only worth about $5 million.

or maybe Seattle in their never ending streak of brilliant moves ( ;-7 ) just showed the league how it's done. :-?

note: seattle is 23-37.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:54 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:well, you see I never said a word about money. I'm just takling about players. $$'s are not accounted for in WAR. but what these $$'s do show you is that teams are willing to pay a cabrera about $22 million/year where as a gutierrez-type is only worth about $5 million.


Yeah, the market overvalues and has always overvalued certain things. Why else would Howard get $20+M? What else it does mean is that if you consider them to be relatively similar-producing players (and I've yet to see any evidence that they're not), then Gutierrez is the much more valuable asset.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:01 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:Where's the "too close to call" option?


lastingsgriller wrote:I doubt any GM's would start a team by picking FraGu over MCab, but:


Considering that the one that plays the easiest position to fill is being paid ~$130M over the next six years and the other who plays a much more difficult position is being paid ~$25M over the next five, I believe that you're wrong.

Think about building the perfect run-preventing team. If they can't score, they'll never win.


I'd like someone to present some evidence that they're not close to being equals when you consider the entirety of what they bring to the table. That includes defensive value, position, everything. Evidence! I'm completely willing to listen and review evidence, but batting average, RBIs, and perpetuating the myth of "lineup protection" do not count as such.


Let's say FG's defensive value is equal to M-Cab's offensive value. Wouldn't you rather have the offense since defense flucuates so much. What I mean is M-Cab is going to get 4-5 PA a game while FG might not get an opportunity in the field. It seems to me that FG values comes from random opportunities that are out of his control.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby lastingsgriller » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:32 pm

The market value for a player like Guitierrez is about $5 million/year. if he was worth more, I assure somone would pay him more. It's not like you have some sort of wealth of secret information that every team in baseball doesn't have access to and knowledge of. Teams pay the most money to the players that help them win ballgames. I wouldn't be so quick to discredit the Phillies or their personel decisions. last I checked, they've been to a couple of world series' recently.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:49 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Let's say FG's defensive value is equal to M-Cab's offensive value. Wouldn't you rather have the offense since defense flucuates so much. What I mean is M-Cab is going to get 4-5 PA a game while FG might not get an opportunity in the field. It seems to me that FG values comes from random opportunities that are out of his control.


So long as the value is derived on a timer period (like a season) as opposed to a rate (value per chance), then no I wouldn't. Offensive value fluctuates tremendously as well. There are going to be days where MCab goes 0-4 with 4 Ks and games where he goes 4-4 with a double, and two homers.


lastingsgriller wrote:The market value for a player like Guitierrez is about $5 million/year. if he was worth more, I assure somone would pay him more. It's not like you have some sort of wealth of secret information that every team in baseball doesn't have access to and knowledge of. Teams pay the most money to the players that help them win ballgames. I wouldn't be so quick to discredit the Phillies or their personel decisions. last I checked, they've been to a couple of world series' recently.


If you're really trying to equate market value with worth then I don't know what to say. I'd love to hear the backup to the argument that all major league players are perfectly valued. :-o
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby thejusman1 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:52 pm

How is this 50-50 in the voting... bunch of sabermetric math heads trying to argue about WAR.. even though Miggy's WAR is currently greater than FraGu's!!!!

This thread = fail.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby lastingsgriller » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:55 pm

all I am saying is that teams want Cabrera more and are willing to give up more to get him. Major League organizations are not stupid. They know that as much as you want to believe otherwise, offense outweighs defense. Or at least thats how the World Champion Yankees feel about it.
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Re: Miguel Cabrera VS Franklin Gutierrez

Postby GiantsFan14 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:57 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:Major League organizations are not stupid..


I would disagree.
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