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Help with veto in keeper league

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Help with veto in keeper league

Postby ramble2 » Fri May 14, 2010 9:12 am

So a month and a half into the season one of the managers in my league announces he's auctioning off his team. Our keeper league allows you to keep five players, with inflation being a draft pick two rounds higher than where a player was kept/drafted the previous year. Undrafted players cost a 20th round pick, and every team also gets one free rookie keeper that doesn't cost a thing. (Rookies cost a 15th round pick their second year.)

This makes undrafted players and rookies very valuable, and teams will sometimes trade rookie keeper spots. Some teams will try to acquire two or three rookie spots over a season.

Yesterday a trade comes through - Chris Carpenter + Bobby Abreu for Carlos Quentin + CJ Wilson + rookie keeper spot. Wilson is a fine rookie and all, but I wouldn't rank him among the top five SP prospects. And I wouldn't put him in Carpenter's class either. Carpenter is also a really great keeper value in our league, because he got drafted very late after his injury year (he'll only cost a 13th round pick as a keeper). Quentin is a joke.

How do you guys recommend handling this? I've posted a note on the league page letting people know I'm unhappy about this trade (and a previous one I didn't have time to deal with - I was grading final exams). I don't just want to veto it, I want to figure out how to balance building for the future with maintaining a competitive balance and fair competition in the league.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby Wadderboiz » Fri May 14, 2010 12:19 pm

I'm assuming the owner who is "auctioning off his team" is giving up too early and trying to set himself up for next season?

If this is the case it significantly alters the value of trades. It involves a certain degree of speculation. Take for example the following trade:

Team #1 gets:
Player A:
AB R HR RBI SB BA
496 96 13 78 10 0.3044
*above statistics are from best minor league season, had yet to play a major league game.
and
Player B:
INN W L S K ERA WHIP
52.1 3 3 0 44 3.628 1.1708
*had made only 11 starts in the major leagues.

Team #2 gets:
Player C:
INN W L S K ERA WHIP
242.0 15 13 0 173 3.868 1.1983
*finished in sixth in Cy Young the previous season, and won the award two year later.

Clearly the deal favors whichever team ends up with player C. This was an actual trade that took place in 2003. Player A is Grady Sizemore...Player B is Cliff Lee...and Player C is Bartolo Colon. Ended up being a pretty balanced trade after a few more seasons passed.

MLB clubs rebuild and sometimes fantasy teams need to as well. It should however not take place in May. That being said if the owner has made the decision to forfeit this season and rebuild, it is his decision and should not be controlled by vetoing trades, because you don't agree with it. If I could add a thriving young pitcher like Wilson, a rookie keeper spot (especially for the upcoming rookie class), and a 35-40 HR bat, to rebuild my team around then I'd do it. Albeit it would be in July or August.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby ramble2 » Fri May 14, 2010 12:53 pm

Wadderboiz wrote:MLB clubs rebuild and sometimes fantasy teams need to as well. It should however not take place in May. That being said if the owner has made the decision to forfeit this season and rebuild, it is his decision and should not be controlled by vetoing trades, because you don't agree with it. If I could add a thriving young pitcher like Wilson, a rookie keeper spot (especially for the upcoming rookie class), and a 35-40 HR bat, to rebuild my team around then I'd do it. Albeit it would be in July or August.

I completely agree, and our league historically has been very permissive about trades. We want to allow people to rebuild, and it is not at all uncommon to trade draft picks. I also agree that a decision to rebuild should not be controlled by vetoing trades (nor, I would add, should decisions about how to best put together a competitive squad). Autonomy is important - but so is a level playing field.

With that in mind, we do have a league policy that allows for something in between vetoing and simply letting trades through. Our league rules allow for mediation if a lot of people are justifiably uncomfortable with a trade. The commish (or whoever ends up mediating) relays the concerns to the parties involved in the trade. The managers are encouraged to propose a modification of the trade that they think will both address the concerns raised while also still being a trade they want to do. The mediator might also make a suggestion on how to modify the deal. In almost every case we've been able to easily figure out a way to modify controversial trades so that everyone was happy.

I'm not completely opposed to letting this trade go through, but I'm leaning heavily towards - at least - mediating the deal. What do you guys think? Any thoughts on how it might be more fair?
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby Wadderboiz » Fri May 14, 2010 2:12 pm

I guess I just don't see why you consider this such a lopsided trade? Getting Carpenter and Abreu is clearly the better end of the deal for the near future, however it is not a Pujols for Conor Jackson type deal. Are an injury risk pitcher like Carpenter and an aging vet like Abreu valued that much higher than to players on the upside and a big bat?
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby ramble2 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:39 pm

Well, part of what I'm looking for is how people's opinions of how lopsided a trade this is. Here's my concerns with it.

Quentin is barely rosterable in our league. At best he's replacement value with any number of other guys off the ww. Maybe he's got a brighter future than some of those guys, but he's not keeper material in our league. No way.

Wilson is a good prospect, granted. But I wouldn't put him among the top five prospects. He also does not qualify as a rookie, lowering his value a bit in our league.

Abreu is an aging vet and not a keeper, but is a quality OF this year. Top 50 easy, could end up top 25.

Carpenter (essentially) missed 2007 and 2008, but pitched almost 200 innings last year and is healthy and on track this year. He also is a great value in the league, costing only a 13th round pick next year.

The valuable parts of the trade are Abreu & Carpenter for Wilson & a rookie keeper spot. Quentin is a throw in but worthless for rebuilding purposes. Are you saying Quentin is a big bat? Would you rather have Wilson for a 20th round pick or Carpenter for a 13th round pick? It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby Wadderboiz » Mon May 17, 2010 8:03 am

Over the past two seasons, which included a significant stint on the DL, Quentin has averaged roughly a HR per 14.5 ABs, he's on pace for app. 500 ABs this year which puts him at 34 or so HRs. He hit over .300 in the minors and .285 in his first full season, and is only 27 years old. I'm guessing after his down year last year he was probably drafted in a later round. I know he's off to a slow start but I would hardly consider him a "throw in".

Wilson - age 29
INN W L S K BBI ERA WHIP
48.7 3 1 0 34 18 1.480 1.0890

Carpenter - age 35
INN W L S K BBI ERA WHIP
53.0 4 1 0 52 16 3.057 1.0755

At this moment Abreu is a better OF option than Quentin, overall Quentin will hit more HRs and RBI, and has the potential to hit for roughly the same AVG.
Quentin - age 27
Abreu - age 36

The owner is clearly going for younger guys. I'm not saying Wilson is a better pitcher or Quentin is a better outfielder at this moment, but if you're in a keeper league and you're rebuilding, you want to have as much upside and youth on your roster as possible. As I see it the deal is not veto-able.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby ramble2 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:53 am

Wadderboiz wrote:Over the past two seasons, which included a significant stint on the DL, Quentin has averaged roughly a HR per 14.5 ABs, he's on pace for app. 500 ABs this year which puts him at 34 or so HRs. He hit over .300 in the minors and .285 in his first full season, and is only 27 years old. I'm guessing after his down year last year he was probably drafted in a later round. I know he's off to a slow start but I would hardly consider him a "throw in".

Wilson - age 29
INN W L S K BBI ERA WHIP
48.7 3 1 0 34 18 1.480 1.0890

Carpenter - age 35
INN W L S K BBI ERA WHIP
53.0 4 1 0 52 16 3.057 1.0755

At this moment Abreu is a better OF option than Quentin, overall Quentin will hit more HRs and RBI, and has the potential to hit for roughly the same AVG.
Quentin - age 27
Abreu - age 36

The owner is clearly going for younger guys. I'm not saying Wilson is a better pitcher or Quentin is a better outfielder at this moment, but if you're in a keeper league and you're rebuilding, you want to have as much upside and youth on your roster as possible. As I see it the deal is not veto-able.

We have a limited number of keepers allowed for each team. I agree that you want upside and youth on the roster, but that doesn't mean selling off your best players at a hugely steep discount.

I appreciate the input, and we didn't end up vetoing the deal. We did, however, end up asking the managers to modify the deal to mitigate the disparity in value. Even though we are a keeper league, we ask teams to compete each year (we don't have to deal with the hugely disparate revenues seen among MLB clubs). Quentin was replaced with Adam Jones, and the deal is going to go through.

I still think the team giving up Carpenter and Abreu is selling short. He could have gotten far more in exchange for those players (he should have pushed for future draft picks instead of Quentin - or even Jones). Neither Quentin nor Jones is a cheap keeper (5th round and 3rd round picks, respectively), but swapping in Jones has (hopefully) dampened concerns.

I'd really recommend a mediation option in every league. It works very well.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby ramble2 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:58 am

Any input on the latest trade from the same manager selling off Carpenter and Abreu above?

Here's the latest:
Team A gets Matt Holliday

Team B gets Rajal Davis, Gio Gonzalez, and Colby Lewis.

On top of concerns about this trade on its face, there's also an additional worry about collusion here. Obviously collusion would be a separate issue. I really don't want to deal with this crap.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby Wadderboiz » Mon May 17, 2010 12:23 pm

If the two teams are the same involved in the first deal I'd say you may have an issue on your hand. Its one thing to make an unbalanced trade to benefit your team the following year, its an entirely different story to sell off all your top performers for middle of the road guys all at one point in the season. I don't particularly care for this deal. A 3 for 1 seems a little more suspicious when the 3 going one way seem like guys that are probably riding the fantasy pine at the moment.
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Re: Help with veto in keeper league

Postby RowdyRed » Mon May 17, 2010 1:27 pm

There really could be collusion if these are the same two teams. I don't mind the first deal at all. The second deal is worse, and if they are the same people, I think there may be some collusion going on.
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