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Lincecum gets the W?

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Lincecum gets the W?

Postby knapplc » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:54 pm

Help me out here, because I think I have a gap in my baseball knowledge.

Lincecum pitches 7.0 innings tonight and leaves with a 3-2 lead.

Affeldt comes in and pitches the 8th for SanFran, gives up no runs.

Bottom of the 8th, the Giants score three runs. It's now 6-2, San Francisco.

Top of the ninth, Affeldt is still in, and Heyward hits a solo shot off of Affeldt. Game ends 6-3, Giants win.

Wouldn't Affeldt be the pitcher of record, since Lince left at 3-2, and Heyward's shot took away the lead Lince earned?

Right now I'm seeing Lincecum as the winner, but will MLB change that? What am I missing?
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby thedude » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:59 pm

If you leave with the lead (after five innings), no matter how big, and your team never surrenders the lead, it does not matter what the final score is, you get the win.


Example:

Zambrano pitches five innings, leaves leading 1-0.

In the top of 7th, the Cubs score 10 runs to make the lead 11-0.

In the bottom of the seventh a series of Cubs pitchers give up ten runs to make the game 11-10.

In the top of the 8th the cubs score a run. 12-10 cubs lead.

Bottom 8, cubs give up a run 12-11.

No one scores in the 9th.

Zambrano gets the win.
Last edited by thedude on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby knapplc » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:01 pm

So, if the Braves had their solo shot to tie it 3-3, Lince doesn't get the W, but since the Giants went from 3-2 to 6-2, and the final was 6-3 and they never surrendered the lead, Lince gets the W? I had that rule all wrong.

And the good news is, I just won my opening week in my H2H league at the last second after trailing the entire week, thanks to Lincecum's W.

;-D
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby jcde7ago » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:02 pm

knapplc wrote:Help me out here, because I think I have a gap in my baseball knowledge.

Lincecum pitches 7.0 innings tonight and leaves with a 3-2 lead.

Affeldt comes in and pitches the 8th for SanFran, gives up no runs.

Bottom of the 8th, the Giants score three runs. It's now 6-2, San Francisco.

Top of the ninth, Affeldt is still in, and Heyward hits a solo shot off of Affeldt. Game ends 6-3, Giants win.

Wouldn't Affeldt be the pitcher of record, since Lince left at 3-2, and Heyward's shot took away the lead Lince earned?

Right now I'm seeing Lincecum as the winner, but will MLB change that? What am I missing?


The last pitcher to leave with a lead gets the W, provided that it is not tied at any point afterward.

Even if Lincecum only left at 3-2 and the next 3 runs were scored during Affeldt's appearance, it's not viewed that Lincecum is only entitled to 3 of those 6 runs; he's entitled to all of those runs, again, so long as it is not tied up. Heyward's shot did not tie the game and take away the lead, since technically Lincecum had a 4-run lead at that point since he was the last pitcher to leave with a lead.

EDIT: A bit late, but oh well!
Last edited by jcde7ago on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby thedude » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:04 pm

knapplc wrote:So, if the Braves had their solo shot to tie it 3-3, Lince doesn't get the W, but since the Giants went from 3-2 to 6-2, and the final was 6-3 and they never surrendered the lead, Lince gets the W?


Yes

jcde7ago wrote:The last pitcher to leave with a lead gets the W, provided that it is not tied at any point afterward.

Correct, I might phrase it as the first pitcher to leave with the lead that is not surrendered (provided that pitcher is not a starting pitcher who went less than 5 innings).
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby Matthias » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:28 pm

thedude wrote:
knapplc wrote:So, if the Braves had their solo shot to tie it 3-3, Lince doesn't get the W, but since the Giants went from 3-2 to 6-2, and the final was 6-3 and they never surrendered the lead, Lince gets the W?

Yes


Yes.

thedude wrote:
jcde7ago wrote:The last pitcher to leave with a lead gets the W, provided that it is not tied at any point afterward.

Correct, I might phrase it as the first pitcher to leave with the lead that is not surrendered (provided that pitcher is not a starting pitcher who went less than 5 innings).

No.

Technically speaking, the W goes to the starting pitcher if they left with the lead and pitched at least 5 innings and the lead is never surrendered. If that isn't the case, the official scorer has the discretion to award it to whichever relief pitcher is the most effective. As a practical outcome, they just give it to the relief pitcher who was in when the lead is taken but they don't really have to.

10.17 Winning And Losing Pitcher
(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless
(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or
(2) Rule 10.17(c) applies.

Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.
(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed
(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or
(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense, then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer’s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.

Rule 10.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.17(b) that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.
(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.
(d) A losing pitcher is a pitcher who is responsible for the run that gives the winning team a lead that the winning team does not relinquish.
Rule 10.17(d) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the losing pitcher is concerned.
(e) A league may designate a non-championship game (for example, the Major League All-Star Game) for which Rules 10.17(a)(1) and 10.17(b) do not apply. In such games, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless such pitcher is knocked out after the winning team has attained a commanding lead and the official scorer concludes that a subsequent pitcher is entitled to credit as the winning pitcher.
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby thedude » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:52 pm

Matthias wrote:Technically speaking, the W goes to the starting pitcher if they left with the lead and pitched at least 5 innings and the lead is never surrendered. If that isn't the case, the official scorer has the discretion to award it to whichever relief pitcher is the most effective. As a practical outcome, they just give it to the relief pitcher who was in when the lead is taken but they don't really have to.


This is what I said. I just did not fully explain the starting pitcher not going five innings rule, since it was not applicable.
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Re: Lincecum gets the W?

Postby Matthias » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:17 pm

thedude wrote:
Matthias wrote:Technically speaking, the W goes to the starting pitcher if they left with the lead and pitched at least 5 innings and the lead is never surrendered. If that isn't the case, the official scorer has the discretion to award it to whichever relief pitcher is the most effective. As a practical outcome, they just give it to the relief pitcher who was in when the lead is taken but they don't really have to.

This is what I said. I just did not fully explain the starting pitcher not going five innings rule, since it was not applicable.

No, it isn't. The point of what I put up is that the W doesn't have to go to, "leave with the lead that is not surrendered (provided that pitcher is not a starting pitcher who went less than 5 innings)." By custom, it does. But by rule, it doesn't have to.

Take this situation.

Starting Pitcher comes in, pitches 5 innings, and leaves with the game a lead 3 to 2.
Relief Pitcher 1 enters the game in the 6th, gets 2 outs, then puts 2 men on, and gets pulled.
Relief Pitcher 2 enters the game and promptly gives up 3 straight HRs to make the score 3 to 7. He almost gives up a 4th HR but it gets caught at the warning track so the side is retired.
During the home half of the inning, the offense puts up 5 runs of their own.
At the top of the 7th, Relief Pitcher 2 gets taken out, with the lead, and Relief Pitcher 3 gets put in, with the score 8 to 7.
Relief Pitcher 3 pitches 2 innings of shutout ball with no hits and no walks.
At the top of the 9th, Relief Pitcher 4 comes in and gets the Save.

Now, most baseball fans would apply your statement above and say that the Win goes to Relief Pitcher 2. But by rule 10.17(c) the scorer could decide to properly give the Win to Relief Pitcher 3. Rule 10.17(b) operates similarly when the starter has failed to go 5 innings. It's a niggling difference, but it is a difference in the rules. And it's a difference I imagine most baseball fans are unaware of, which is why I pointed it out.
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