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Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

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Re: Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

Postby Fantasy Judgment » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:30 pm

I agree that these trades are not vetoable. I also agree that this fantasy baseball novice may not know exactly what he is doing. However, one thing I would like to point out is that judging a trade or someone's personal evaluation of a player by what round they were drafted in is not appropriate. He may have evaluated Ichiro as a Top 20 player, and he is entitled to do so. That does not mean Ichiro objectively is a Top 20 player or that he should warrant Top 20 talent back in return.

One recent example I can give is that in 2008, Cliff Lee went undrafted in my 18-team H2H points league. I added him after the first week of the season, and he went on to have one of the most dominating seasons in recent memory. When I entertained trade offers for Lee, he was not treated as an undrafted free agent.

Ichiro clearly has declined in several aspects of fantasy baseball. In Roto leagues, he still has value as far as average and steals go. But as was pointed out before, Ichiro does not steal as many bases as he did 5-6 years ago. What you may lose in average and steals with Ichiro, you gain in homeruns and RBI's with Ibanez. Lackey for Buerhle and Feldman is certainly fair as well.

The biggest issue I see here is the concern over this newbie making trades only with the team who brought him into the league. That could be problematic if you suspect some underhanded collusive effort. Feel free to contact me for any assistance you or your league may need in evaluating trades or dealing with unfair, collusive transactions.
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Re: Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

Postby angels7777 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:45 pm

Fantasy Judgment wrote:I agree that these trades are not vetoable. I also agree that this fantasy baseball novice may not know exactly what he is doing. However, one thing I would like to point out is that judging a trade or someone's personal evaluation of a player by what round they were drafted in is not appropriate. He may have evaluated Ichiro as a Top 20 player, and he is entitled to do so. That does not mean Ichiro objectively is a Top 20 player or that he should warrant Top 20 talent back in return.

One recent example I can give is that in 2008, Cliff Lee went undrafted in my 18-team H2H points league. I added him after the first week of the season, and he went on to have one of the most dominating seasons in recent memory. When I entertained trade offers for Lee, he was not treated as an undrafted free agent.

Ichiro clearly has declined in several aspects of fantasy baseball. In Roto leagues, he still has value as far as average and steals go. But as was pointed out before, Ichiro does not steal as many bases as he did 5-6 years ago. What you may lose in average and steals with Ichiro, you gain in homeruns and RBI's with Ibanez. Lackey for Buerhle and Feldman is certainly fair as well.

The biggest issue I see here is the concern over this newbie making trades only with the team who brought him into the league. That could be problematic if you suspect some underhanded collusive effort. Feel free to contact me for any assistance you or your league may need in evaluating trades or dealing with unfair, collusive transactions.


Thanks - on actual numbers I guess these trades are not so bad, but if you are willing to take Tex at #5 over Braun, you must value him pretty highly and should not be shipping him out for a guy like Cuddyer.... I offered the guy Nelson Cruz for Texeira and he laughed at me, then pulls this BS.... this guy has been trading with several guys in the league - it just appears that his 2 worst trades have been with his son and the guy that brought him into the league.... it is a money league so that always makes things worse....
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Re: Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

Postby angels7777 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:52 pm

Kimbos Beard wrote:
angels7777 wrote:same rookie just traded Texeira, Carlos Lee, and Lacky (who he reacquired) for Pablo Sandoval, Cuddyer, and Brian Wilson....


That trade on its on is not close to being veto worthy, but I totally get the frustration with this newbie's overall playing so far. I am not sure what you can do since you don't really seem to have the backing of any other managers in the league (or more necessary the backing of the majority of the managers in the league).

It's funny because I really dislike leagues where no managers are willing to trade but on the other hand I am not a fan of leagues or teams that just trade their players non-stop like this manager seems to be doing, especially when he is making bonehead trades!


This league is all about having fun and trading, but like you said it gets a little frustrating when one manager keeps beefing up other teams at a low cost.... seriously, is Cuddyer worth Tex?

earlier in the year I traded this guy Carlos Lee/Capps for Bay/Rauch - it was a fair deal, but the guy will probably never trust me in a deal again since Lee has been a trainwreck thus far...
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Re: Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

Postby Kimbos Beard » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:28 pm

Fantasy Judgment wrote:I agree that these trades are not vetoable. I also agree that this fantasy baseball novice may not know exactly what he is doing. However, one thing I would like to point out is that judging a trade or someone's personal evaluation of a player by what round they were drafted in is not appropriate. He may have evaluated Ichiro as a Top 20 player, and he is entitled to do so. That does not mean Ichiro objectively is a Top 20 player or that he should warrant Top 20 talent back in return.


I would disagree with this. He evaluated Ichiro as a top 20 player, and in less then two weeks changed his evaluation to the point where he probably took back even less value than Ichiro is actually worth.

It's a legitimate aspect when evaluating a trade to ask the person making the trade what their justification for this trade was. Why did he have him ranked as a top 20 player and now suddenly he is not. I think it would go more to a collusive angle than anything else.

Like I said I don't think this trade is vetoable, but I would definitely want an explanation from the manager, especially one better than the OP got.
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Re: Ichiro/Lackey for Ibanez/Buerhle/Feldman? Vetoable?

Postby Fantasy Judgment » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:45 pm

Just because someone evaluates a player at a certain level or tier when preparing for a draft does not mean that the player will maintain the same equivalent value, whether it be for 2 weeks, 2 months, or the whole season. His "change" in evaluation of Ichiro is purely subjective. But basing an opinion on when someone else drafts a player does not comport with what is necessarily fair or of equal value.

I do agree that the overarching theme here is potential collusion or shady dealings. That being said, the initial trade of Ichiro in this package is not inherently unfair. It also depends on what the other team's needs are. But to ask someone to justify their reasoning behind a trade is quite different than asking them why they initially valued a player in pre-season rankings. Everyone has different opinions and evaluations. He might have thought he stole Ichiro in the first 20 picks whereas you might think he took Ichiro three rounds too early. That is a fundamental disagreement in personal evaluation and rank. A person is clearly allowed to either change their mind or modify what their initial evaluation was.

Mark Teixeira, one of the top fantasy options in any format, always starts off slow and puts up miserable April numbers. Despite knowing what his numbers will probably be at the end of the year, it is not unrational for someone to get fed up with Tex after three weeks of hitting like crap. However, dealing him for Cuddyer certainly does not represent equal value now or over the course of the season. This is what raises the red flags for possible collusion.

Again, the most important factor in all of this is to prevent any collusive dealings or backdoor agreements. If you suspect that, then there are means and methods for dealing with that situation.
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