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Best OF Arm?

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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:03 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:
Curtis Pride wrote:They are both absolutely two of the worst players in baseball. Now, they may improve, but at present, they are two of the worst players in all of baseball.

Especially Francouer who does nothing well. In his career, he doesn't hit for average. He doesn't hit for power. He doesn't walk. He strikes out too much. He's got no speed. He has no range in the field. He does have a very good arm. But of the 7 skills in baseball, he's dreadful in 6 of them, and great in 1.

Even guys like Cristian Guzman have more value than Francouer. He's down there with Yunesky Betancourt.


No, once again this is wrong. They are rosterable in fantasy which means they are at least in the top 250 (12 X 21=252) players in baseball. Factor in defense, which has merit in reality, and they're even better. This really makes your statement foolish.

If you think the fact that they mediocre enough in fantasy baseball to be rosterable in small leagues means anything about how good they are in real baseball, then I am not going to waste my time arguing as you are too far gone.


Word. ;-D
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:06 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:
Curtis Pride wrote:They are both absolutely two of the worst players in baseball. Now, they may improve, but at present, they are two of the worst players in all of baseball.

Especially Francouer who does nothing well. In his career, he doesn't hit for average. He doesn't hit for power. He doesn't walk. He strikes out too much. He's got no speed. He has no range in the field. He does have a very good arm. But of the 7 skills in baseball, he's dreadful in 6 of them, and great in 1.

Even guys like Cristian Guzman have more value than Francouer. He's down there with Yunesky Betancourt.


No, once again this is wrong. They are rosterable in fantasy which means they are at least in the top 250 (12 X 21=252) players in baseball. Factor in defense, which has merit in reality, and they're even better. This really makes your statement foolish.

If you think the fact that they mediocre enough in fantasy baseball to be rosterable in small leagues means anything about how good they are in real baseball, then I am not going to waste my time arguing as you are too far gone.


The fact that there are players in the majors that ride the pine and barely play while these guys start disproves everything you said.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:12 pm

Havok1517 wrote:The fact that there are players in the majors that ride the pine and barely play while these guys start disproves everything you said.


I'm pretty sure that the only thing that proves is that there are really dumb GMs and managers. ;-)
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Curtis Pride » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:28 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:The fact that there are players in the majors that ride the pine and barely play while these guys start disproves everything you said.


I'm pretty sure that the only thing that proves is that there are really dumb GMs and managers. ;-)

What, pray tell do you think Jeff Francouer does well?

His career line is: .271/.312/.432 for a .744 OPS. He's got a .725 OPS over the past 3 years, when he was supposed to be improving as he aged. He provides no speed, and no defensive utility at one of the least valuable defensive positions. Again, he's got a good arm, but that's rarely even utilized.

His OPS puts in in line with a bunch of middle infielders like Orlando Cabrera ad Kaz Matsui and speedsters like Nyjer Morgan and Rajai Davis.

Of the over 150 hitters who have averaged at least 250 AB (and played 1b, DH, or a corner outfield spot) in the last three years, Franceour ranks 21st from the bottom - exclusively ahead of defense/speed guys like Wily Taveras, Pierre, Bourn, Carlos Gomez, etc. The only "hitters" he's better than are Austin Kearns and Gary Matthews, JR. Two guys who have been basically run out of baseball. He's 15th from the bottom in OBP. Jeff Franceour is dreadfully awful at baseball.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:The fact that there are players in the majors that ride the pine and barely play while these guys start disproves everything you said.


I'm pretty sure that the only thing that proves is that there are really dumb GMs and managers. ;-)

What, pray tell do you think Jeff Francouer does well?

His career line is: .271/.312/.432 for a .744 OPS. He's got a .725 OPS over the past 3 years, when he was supposed to be improving as he aged. He provides no speed, and no defensive utility at one of the least valuable defensive positions. Again, he's got a good arm, but that's rarely even utilized.

His OPS puts in in line with a bunch of middle infielders like Orlando Cabrera ad Kaz Matsui and speedsters like Nyjer Morgan and Rajai Davis.

Of the over 150 hitters who have averaged at least 250 AB (and played 1b, DH, or a corner outfield spot) in the last three years, Franceour ranks 21st from the bottom - exclusively ahead of defense/speed guys like Wily Taveras, Pierre, Bourn, Carlos Gomez, etc. The only "hitters" he's better than are Austin Kearns and Gary Matthews, JR. Two guys who have been basically run out of baseball. He's 15th from the bottom in OBP. Jeff Franceour is dreadfully awful at baseball.


I hope that wasn't directed at me, because I'm on your side. :-B
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:47 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:The fact that there are players in the majors that ride the pine and barely play while these guys start disproves everything you said.


I'm pretty sure that the only thing that proves is that there are really dumb GMs and managers. ;-)

What, pray tell do you think Jeff Francouer does well?

His career line is: .271/.312/.432 for a .744 OPS. He's got a .725 OPS over the past 3 years, when he was supposed to be improving as he aged. He provides no speed, and no defensive utility at one of the least valuable defensive positions. Again, he's got a good arm, but that's rarely even utilized.

His OPS puts in in line with a bunch of middle infielders like Orlando Cabrera ad Kaz Matsui and speedsters like Nyjer Morgan and Rajai Davis.

Of the over 150 hitters who have averaged at least 250 AB (and played 1b, DH, or a corner outfield spot) in the last three years, Franceour ranks 21st from the bottom - exclusively ahead of defense/speed guys like Wily Taveras, Pierre, Bourn, Carlos Gomez, etc. The only "hitters" he's better than are Austin Kearns and Gary Matthews, JR. Two guys who have been basically run out of baseball. He's 15th from the bottom in OBP. Jeff Franceour is dreadfully awful at baseball.


The test I always ask myself is would I trade these players for the other. In my most cases, I'd rather keep Francouer. I watch the guy and I can tell he's not one of the worst players in baseball. Watch a game and he has a lot of talent still.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Curtis Pride » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:30 pm

No Pimpin, wasn't directed at you.

Jeff Franceour may look like he's got skills, but he's awful at everything that matters in baseball. No-hit guys like Nyjer Morgan, Jack Wilson, and Franklin Gutierrez are infinitely more valuable than Franceour in real baseball either because they get extra bases that the normal player wouldn on the basepaths and produce runs that way, or because they get to significantly more balls than the average player and save runs on defense.

Franceour does neither. He's significantly below average in the field, at the plate, and on the basepaths.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby jake_twothousandfive » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:19 pm

As a Twins fan I can confirm that Delmon Young was one of the worst players in the league for a good part of last year. For as big an powerful as he is, the vast majority of his hits were weak singles. And he looked foolish in the field on a regular basis.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:No Pimpin, wasn't directed at you.

Jeff Franceour may look like he's got skills, but he's awful at everything that matters in baseball. No-hit guys like Nyjer Morgan, Jack Wilson, and Franklin Gutierrez are infinitely more valuable than Franceour in real baseball either because they get extra bases that the normal player wouldn on the basepaths and produce runs that way, or because they get to significantly more balls than the average player and save runs on defense.

Franceour does neither. He's significantly below average in the field, at the plate, and on the basepaths.


Francouer has 2 plus tools in arm and power. But maybe you should change the word player to outfielder or regular because I'd take either of them by a wide margin for a a pinch hittter, no hit infielder, or backup OFer.
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Re: Best OF Arm?

Postby Curtis Pride » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:10 am

how is power a plus, given his career .432 slugging percentage (below Ichiro, Orlando Hudson, James Loney, Melvin Mora, and David DeJesus)? Or are you too blinded by 5x5 fantasy and his potential for 20-25 homers to think he's actually a power hitter?

But I give you credit, I figured when I cam home tonight tonight there would have been a post about how "ha ha, do you still question his power now?" after his two homer night. To whit, I would have responded "yeah, so is Rod Barajas your ideal power hitter, too?"
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