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Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

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Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby RAmst23 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:02 pm

I'm going to be in a 10 team 5x5 H2H league this year. They will be starting the standard players (3 OFs, no CI or MI, one utility) and will have 7 pitcher slots, so 16 overall. The catch is there will be 10 bench spots and 2 DL spots. Also note, there's unlimited drops/adds but a fee for each add or drop.

I'm concerned that in this format the top tier SPs will be devalued as teams will be able to hold onto tons of pitchers and could easily stream off their bench. What good would two top SPs be when I'll need to have at least 7 - 8 SPs to be competitive each week? Would the best strategy be to wait and draft as many middle tier high upside picks as possible?

Since there are no extra OF or CI/MI spots, having top hitters in each spot will be extremely important. I'm thinking the best idea will be to just wait until rounds 9 - 10 then draft a ton of value SPs and fill my bench up that way. Any thoughts/feedback?
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby Maris09 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:53 pm

Yeah I'd probably go all hitting until my starting lineup is filled.
Maybe add one ace in there somewhere if a guy falls too far.

Everybody's lineup should be studly, so I might put an emphasis on getting a stud Catcher and stud SS (more than I would in a normal league).
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby MTUCache » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:38 pm

Seems like starting pitching has very little value in that league. No min/max on IP?

I'd build around all offense except for a couple of top-tier closers, a few bottom-tier closers and a bunch of nobody SP.

Start every week with no SP and just using closers with good matchups, hoping to wrap up SV/ERA/WHIP within the first few days. If that doesn't turn out and you've blown your ERA/WHIP numbers for the week then just stream everybody for the last three days and guarantee yourself the W/K/SV categories. Aim at splitting the pitching cats 3/2 every week and then focus the rest of your draft on offense.

Strengths:
1.) You're eliminating the variance those top-tier pitchers are going to have and going with a "safer", more stable approach.
2.) You're swapping a couple of lower-tier hitters for mid-tier hitters by switching those draft positions.
3.) You're going to have a very strong chance of at least splitting the pitching cats in EVERY week.

Problems:
1.) This is shady, no fun, and will piss people off.
2.) You're still dedicating top-round draft picks to top-tier closers, picks you really need to use on offense.
3.) At least a couple weeks through the season this will backfire on you (or someone else will do it better) and you'll get skunked for the whole week.

Solutions:
1.) Play roto instead.
2.) Play roto instead.
3.) ....

League setups and strategies like this are why I don't think I've ever had a positive experience playing H2H. It's way too easy to punt one category or type of player and not be penalized for it.
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby mdgoalie » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:39 am

MTUCache wrote:League setups and strategies like this are why I don't think I've ever had a positive experience playing H2H. It's way too easy to punt one category or type of player and not be penalized for it.


I appreciated your knowledgeable response to the OPs question, and I wanted to ask a related question based on your last sentence...

I'm the commish for a semi-competitive league where we like to have head to head to keep it interesting and allow for weekly trash talking, etc. I've been trying to figure out ways to minimize the problem of streaming and punting categories like saves, steals, OBP (instead of AVG). Do you have any recommendations outside of limiting the amount of pickups per week (which I already do, somewhere between 3-5, haven't decided) or making the benches so deep that there aren't any pitchers on the WW worth streaming very often (but then that devalues drafting decent pitchers early)?

I was thinking about adding another category such as K/BB that would reward good pitching while severely limiting weekly pickups, but I was curious if you had any other ideas to make it more roto "ish" I guess. Plus then I would have to add another batting category to even it up to 7X7.

Thanks

Sorry to hijack the thread, back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby Ender » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:06 am

H2H and daily transactions don't mix all that well, I'd push for the league to go weekly and that works much much better.

If you are used to H2H and are in an active league where you can have some fun trash talking with your opponent you'll find a move to roto very boring. The two don't compare at all. I always play my one H2H league with friends and it is by far the most fun league I've been in but I play roto for my money leagues since it is a better game from a technical standpoint.
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby Bogey9906 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:16 pm

My H2H league with daily transactions works great. We use a yearly limit on transactions to eliminate streaming. Our limit is too low at 20 per year, but around 50 would be fine (or 3 per week). Also, a minimum of 40 IP per week puts a premium on starting pitching in the draft, so there's nobody good left to stream.

We also split the payout to include leaders in cumulative Roto-style stats, in addition to payouts for weekly winners, final standings and playoff winners. Recognizing cumulative Roto stats seems to keep people from consistently punting the same category each week. Splitting the payout also helps reduce the emphasis on fickle H2H playoffs, which is the biggest negative to H2H. This way, the best team usually wins the biggest payout overall, but bragging rights still go to the playoffs winner.
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Re: Value of top tier SP in deep bench leagues?

Postby mdgoalie » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:07 am

Ender wrote:H2H and daily transactions don't mix all that well, I'd push for the league to go weekly and that works much much better.

If you are used to H2H and are in an active league where you can have some fun trash talking with your opponent you'll find a move to roto very boring. The two don't compare at all. I always play my one H2H league with friends and it is by far the most fun league I've been in but I play roto for my money leagues since it is a better game from a technical standpoint.


That's kind of what I was thinking, I'm afraid some people would lose interest going to roto.

Bogey9906 wrote:My H2H league with daily transactions works great. We use a yearly limit on transactions to eliminate streaming. Our limit is too low at 20 per year, but around 50 would be fine (or 3 per week). Also, a minimum of 40 IP per week puts a premium on starting pitching in the draft, so there's nobody good left to stream.

We also split the payout to include leaders in cumulative Roto-style stats, in addition to payouts for weekly winners, final standings and playoff winners. Recognizing cumulative Roto stats seems to keep people from consistently punting the same category each week. Splitting the payout also helps reduce the emphasis on fickle H2H playoffs, which is the biggest negative to H2H. This way, the best team usually wins the biggest payout overall, but bragging rights still go to the playoffs winner.


Last year we had maximum 5 player moves a week but I was thinking of lowering it to 3 or 4. Also had a minimum IP of 25, but I'll probably bump it up a bit, especially if I add more bench spots. The only thing I was thinking was, if you add more spots for pitchers, doesn't it dilute the top talent you draft? Making top pitchers less valuable because you're pooling together 15 starts instead of 10 maybe?

We only have a $10 buy-in, enough to make it nice to win and keep people interested, but not enough that you feel bad about it if you come in last. And it's H2H, but no playoffs, kind of like premier league soccer, or college football; the regular season is the playoffs :-D.
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