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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby DaSh 1s » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:40 am

thedude wrote:But who has pitched more MiLB innings Kelly or Strasburg? Yet you have no problem with ranking Strasburg first? You should respond because it is obvious that Strasburg will an amazing pitcher. Well the same principle applies to Casey Kelly.


Now, I have officially seen it all. Kelly is now being hyped up in the category of Strasburg. When will it end? :-b

Well for starters, Strasburg is a draftee out of college (2 years), that was drafted of previous pitching merits.
http://goaztecs.cstv.com/sports/m-baseb ... hen00.html

Quite frankly, I have never seen a prospect as refined as Strasburg. Kelly is a HS SS that converted to a pitcher midway through last year because he was inept with the stick, to salvage his career. Do you really want to get into this conversation? Because we can really elaborate much more with this... we can get into different pitches and stuff each prospect posses?

Edit: thedude, don't get me wrong. He could be a very excellent, excellent pitcher over time. Just for what we have in front of us right now, the Kool-Aid is a little immense for DaSh 1s right now.
B-Chad wrote:Pedroia's LD rate of 20% is reason to believe he'll maintain a higher BA then Cano. It should also be noted he hits more FB's then Cano, which means that even if he posts a lower HR/FB then Cano, he should come in reasonably close to Cano in HR's
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby thedude » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:56 am

DaSh 1s wrote:
thedude wrote:But who has pitched more MiLB innings Kelly or Strasburg? Yet you have no problem with ranking Strasburg first? You should respond because it is obvious that Strasburg will an amazing pitcher. Well the same principle applies to Casey Kelly.


Now, I have officially seen it all. Kelly is now being hyped up in the category of Strasburg. When will it end? :-b

Well for starters, Strasburg is a draftee out of college (2 years), that was drafted of previous pitching merits.
http://goaztecs.cstv.com/sports/m-baseb ... hen00.html

Quite frankly, I have never seen a prospect as refined as Strasburg. Kelly is a HS SS that converted to a pitcher midway through last year because he was inept with the stick, to salvage his career. Do you really want to get into this conversation? Because we can really elaborate much more with this... we can get into different pitches and stuff each prospect posses?


Don't put words in my mouth. I am fully aware of Strasbrug and he deserves to be the number 1 prospect.

I am simply pointing out that your logic is very weak. Because if the only weakness you see with Kelly is his inexperience then you should also take issue with Strasburg. And College pitching is not pro-pitching as everyone knows (the balls are different, for one). But that really should not matter because it is all about projection, which is why your anti-Kelly arguements fall flat on their face.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby BalataGrande » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:07 pm

This is fun watching you guys go back in forth. This is what these lists are supposed to do. Get people fired up over potential. Isn't that the definition of a prospect?? A player with a skill set that SHOULD play well in the bigs. That SHOULD is a huge word. I have a legitimate concern over Strasburg and how he will handle the adversity of getting rocked a few times in a row or when he gives up a 3 run bomb to a "slap" hitting #8 hitter. I'm not saying he won't be able to work through it but guys with all that stuff sometimes get tipped over when they just can't blow it by guys anymore. There are no sure things in baseball..........thats what makes these conversations so juicy!! :)
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby DaSh 1s » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:15 pm

thedude wrote: I am simply pointing out that your logic is very weak. Because if the only weakness you see with Kelly is his inexperience then you should also take issue with Strasburg. And College pitching is not pro-pitching as everyone knows (the balls are different, for one). But that really should not matter because it is all about projection, which is why your anti-Kelly arguements fall flat on their face.


Again this is where my argument lies! His projections are still absurd, from what we see now! Low 90 MPH FB and with the potential of two plus breaking pitches. How does this equate to top 20 prospect status?! From reports his CB is a plus, but his CHG is still ~8 MPH variance from his BEST FB.

He predominantly uses his FB to set up hitters on his breaking pitches. As he will rise through the ranks, I really would like to see his K rate sustain as he faces more patient hitters. Top 20 status, is big time projections. My anti-Kelly arguments is how did break into this projection with only a plus CB and a nifty K ratio through low levels of Minors? His stuff projects him as a 3 starter, low end 2 but on all potential he falls so high up the ladder. That is my pet peeve.
B-Chad wrote:Pedroia's LD rate of 20% is reason to believe he'll maintain a higher BA then Cano. It should also be noted he hits more FB's then Cano, which means that even if he posts a lower HR/FB then Cano, he should come in reasonably close to Cano in HR's
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby AquaMan2342 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:20 pm

I knew I stole Perez in the 12 AM prospect draft last year! :-B
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby thedude » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:30 pm

DaSh 1s wrote:
thedude wrote: I am simply pointing out that your logic is very weak. Because if the only weakness you see with Kelly is his inexperience then you should also take issue with Strasburg. And College pitching is not pro-pitching as everyone knows (the balls are different, for one). But that really should not matter because it is all about projection, which is why your anti-Kelly arguements fall flat on their face.


Again this is where my argument lies! His projections are still absurd, from what we see now! Low 90 MPH FB and with the potential of two plus breaking pitches. How does this equate to top 20 prospect status?! From reports his CB is a plus, but his CHG is still ~8 MPH variance from his BEST FB.

He predominantly uses his FB to set up hitters on his breaking pitches. As he will rise through the ranks, I really would like to see his K rate sustain as he faces more patient hitters. Top 20 status, is big time projections. My anti-Kelly arguments is how did break into this projection with only a plus CB and a nifty K ratio through low levels of Minors? His stuff projects him as a 3 starter, low end 2 but on all potential he falls so high up the ladder. That is my pet peeve.


He his breaking stuff is plus, his changeup projects out as a plus, and he has plus-plus command. He projects as a very good pitcher. I probably don't put him as the fourteenth best prospect, but that has nothing to do with experience.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby PapelbonBLEWit » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:46 pm

Dash- Very, very strong points on Strasburg vs. Kelly. Agree 100%
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby kab21 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:51 pm

I also have not seen enough of kelly to rank him this high. Pretty good prospect (top 50) but not top 20 right now.

I've already discussed why I don't like Bumgarner where he is but I'm also suprised by the aggressive ranking of Hicks (and I'm a Twins fan). He still has all of the tools and he didn't fall flat on his face last year but i would like to see a little more production before i made him a top 20 prospect.
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby Tavish » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:35 pm

DaSh 1s wrote:Speaking of Greinke's MiLB career, does anyone know how his SL was ranked coming up, or if it was considered a Plus-Pitch at the time? Or if he even threw it? I remember his CB was his best pitch his rookie year. But his SL now is pretty different from when he first was called up. That pitch really came on for him in the last two years.

Greinke had a plus-plus fastball and slider coming up. His changeup was his third best pitch and was only considered a plus and his curve was considered average. The slider has always been his main put away pitch.
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Re: SI's Top 20 Prospects

Postby thedude » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:00 pm

The person that really doesn't belong here is Hicks. He has the tools, but has not preformed at the minor league level, and there are people who have better tools than Hicks. He might develop, but hasn't started yet.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
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