Yikes! (SAT scores) - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to General Talk

Yikes! (SAT scores)

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:36 am

Madison wrote:If the "culturally biased" view had any merits at all, math scores would be significantly higher than the other section(s). As far as I know, that isn't the case.

And arguing that a test given in English about the English language is "culturally biased" is humerous in itself. I had to take two years of foreign language in high school. Had I done poorly in those two classes, I could have used the same "culturally biased" excuse, and of course that excuse is simply that - an excuse. :-b


Language is only part of the problem. Culture includes environment, family system, parenting, socioeconomics, etc.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:38 am

bigh0rt wrote:The argument is never that the test is biased because it is given in English and not in native language for ESL/ELL students (I'm not sure if they can or can't had the exam administered in their native languages, to be honest -- they might be able to).


Language learners can take TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language), which is an easier version of the verbal section. But you are correct that language is part of the issue.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby Madison » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:14 pm

bigh0rt wrote:Just because you believe something to be true or untrue, does not make it such. I haven't read enough literature (nor do I really care enough) on the subject to have a heavily weighted opinion on the potential culture bias of the SAT, but the argument is certainly not outdated, nor is it not pretty strongly supported in many parts of academia. The argument is never that the test is biased because it is given in English and not in native language for ESL/ELL students (I'm not sure if they can or can't had the exam administered in their native languages, to be honest -- they might be able to). So your example here really doesn't apply.

FWIW, here's a guy who agrees with you, Madison. And here's a paper I had to read for an undergraduate education assessment course on culture bias across most or all standardized testing.

At the end of the day, from where I'm standing, the SAT measures one thing and one thing only (consequently, it's one thing it doesn't claim to attempt to measure) -- a student's very specific test-taking abilities. Because of this, it is going to be relied upon and required less and less by more and more colleges and universities as part of the admissions process.


I like the guy in the first link, but he misses the mark as well:

The same goes for the "self-esteem" argument. Believe me, my self-esteem would suffer if I had to go out on a golf course and compete with Tiger Woods or onto a tennis court and compete with Pete Sampras or Andre Agassi. We would have to throw out every criterion in every field if we wanted to avoid damaging the self-esteem of those who fail.


If failing in those circumstances would hurt someone's self-esteem, they've got serious and severe self-confidence problems. Now if someone is a "professional" or wants to play golf or tennis for a living, and they get completely blown away by those three, then it should serve simply as a reality check that they might need to get into another line of work. It certainly shouldn't affect their self-esteem.

But I did like this:

If you can't handle math and the English language, you are in big trouble.

If the "culturally biased" argument is meant to insinuate that these tests falsely predict a lower academic achievement level for minority students than they later achieve, then that is a purely factual question. And the facts have devastated that theory time and again, for years on end.


From your other link though, I call BS from the start:

Bias in an item on intelligence tests can result from cultural familiarity with one
of the objects or words that occur in the question. For example, one item that appears in a
form with pictures and in another form with words, gives a set of four instruments, harp,
drum, violin, and piano. The test taker is then asked to cross out the one that doesn’t
belong. (Eells 258). Over half of the lower status children picked the harp, rather than the
correct answer of drum, probably because they were unfamiliar with the harp as an
instrument from a lack of exposure to it.


They can't see the drum is the only one without strings? Sorry, not buying a "lack of exposure" excuse, there are pictures right there on the page. That has zero to do with culture. Spin is one thing, but that borders on absurd. There's more, but that one says enough.

The teachers were told that the students were given the
Harvard Test of Inflected Acquisition, which would predict academic “blooming” or
“spurting.” The teachers the received a list of children that had excelled on the Harvard
test and were potential “academic bloomers.” The lists, however, were in fact, randomly
generated. When, at the end of the year, the students were given the TOGA again, to see
if the expectations of the teachers had any effect on the children’s scores. Rosenthal
noted, “For the entire school, the children for whom the teachers had expected intellectual
growth averaged significantly greater improvement than did the control children.”


Of course they did. The teachers gave those particular students more attention (noted in the .pdf). If all students were given the same attention, all of their scores would go up. What do all students have in common? Parents! Maybe someone should let parents know they can help their kid learn and be smart! BRILLIANT! :-B

The poor may be handicapped by the existence of SAT courses, books, and
computer programs which claim to raise scores. Many of the courses can cost up to $800;
the head of one such course observed, “Most of our kids are wealthy. Those are the kids
who have an advantage to begin with. And we’re moving them up another level.” (Mensh
1991:138).


Wait, wait, the author doesn't know those books and programs work or do any good whatsoever, but he's willing to use them as a scapegoat? That's obviously fishy.

I am not, in this paper, forwarding some kind of radical leftist political view, as is
often the charge against those critical of the standardized testing system. My intent was to
put forth examples of how standard tests can be bias in favor of certain cultures, how the
scores from such test can be misinterpreted to justify unfounded and prejudiced beliefs,
and how there are many that do indeed have an interest in maintaining such a flawed
system. Again, it is Walter Lippman who best articulates the views of those critical of the
intelligence testing industry; he writes,
I hate the impudence of a claim that in fifty minutes you can judge and classify a
human being’s predestined fitness in life. I hate the pretentiousness of the claim. I
hate the abuse of scientific method which it involves. I hate the sense of
superiority which it creates, and the sense of inferiority which it imposes.


He's treating the SAT as the be-all-end-all which it isn't, and something I stated awhile back. :-b

Anyway, I tried to keep it short (meaning I didn't open up all the holes in it), but that paper really isn't very good. A college or institute of higher learning really made you read that paper H0rt? Figured they'd pick something with less obvious flaws. Then again, maybe they wanted to hear people read it, think for themselves, find the flaws, and point them out... :-?
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby Madison » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:12 pm

Oh, and if we really wanted to discuss a flaw in most standardized tests, the argument would be that most of them are multiple guess, so quite a few people are getting "correct" answers when they don't have a clue what the answer is. Make all questions fill-in-the-blank, and the overall scores would go down across the board on any and all exams that use multiple guess.

O:-)

:-D
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:16 pm

Madison wrote:Oh, and if we really wanted to discuss a flaw in most standardized tests, the argument would be that most of them are multiple guess, so quite a few people are getting "correct" answers when they don't have a clue what the answer is. Make all questions fill-in-the-blank, and the overall scores would go down across the board on any and all exams that use multiple guess.

O:-)

:-D


I think that goes without saying.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:06 pm

Madison wrote:Anyway, I tried to keep it short (meaning I didn't open up all the holes in it), but that paper really isn't very good. A college or institute of higher learning really made you read that paper H0rt? Figured they'd pick something with less obvious flaws. Then again, maybe they wanted to hear people read it, think for themselves, find the flaws, and point them out... :-?

It was purposefully chosen as one of the centerpiece articles for a town meeting style forum debate, where different groups were assigned sides to defend. It was meant to be able to be picked at. That's why I posted it for you to read, as well. ;-D
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24816
(Past Year: 357)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:08 pm

Madison wrote:Oh, and if we really wanted to discuss a flaw in most standardized tests, the argument would be that most of them are multiple guess, so quite a few people are getting "correct" answers when they don't have a clue what the answer is. Make all questions fill-in-the-blank, and the overall scores would go down across the board on any and all exams that use multiple guess.

O:-)

:-D

The SAT's scoring system where there is no penalty for a blank answer, and 1/4 the penalty for an incorrect answer as the reward for a correct answer attempts to try and counter this to a degree, but does so poorly, IMO.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24816
(Past Year: 357)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby markj11 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:10 pm

I'm so far south all we had was the ACT.
I ain't askin' nobody for nothin, If I can't get it on my own. - Charlie Daniels
markj11
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2112
Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Wright here

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby bigh0rt » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:14 pm

I must be in back to school mode, as I go back on Tuesday 9/1, but I found this article, just out today, which seems to support Art's earlier position that scores were dipping because more students, who would have typically not taken the exam previously, are now taking it.

mark, the ACT has gained a ton of ground on the SAT in terms of number of students taking it, and how it is viewed, especially in more recent years.

EDIT -- Here's a little piece from Kaplan about the ACT/SAT for ya, mark.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24816
(Past Year: 357)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: Yikes! (SAT scores)

Postby markj11 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:19 pm

bigh0rt wrote:I must be in back to school mode, as I go back on Tuesday 9/1, but I found this article, just out today, which seems to support Art's earlier position that scores were dipping because more students, who would have typically not taken the exam previously, are now taking it.

mark, the ACT has gained a ton of ground on the SAT in terms of number of students taking it, and how it is viewed, especially in more recent years.

EDIT -- Here's a little piece from Kaplan about the ACT/SAT for ya, mark.


The thing about the ACT is that you must be a good/fast reader.
I ain't askin' nobody for nothin, If I can't get it on my own. - Charlie Daniels
markj11
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2112
Joined: 3 Apr 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Wright here

PreviousNext

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron
Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Tuesday, Sep. 2
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Cincinnati at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Detroit at Cleveland
(7:05 pm)
Boston at NY Yankees
(7:05 pm)
Philadelphia at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
NY Mets at Miami
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Toronto at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Milwaukee at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
Chi White Sox at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Texas at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
LA Angels at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Pittsburgh at St. Louis
(8:15 pm)
San Francisco at Colorado
(8:40 pm)
Seattle at Oakland
(10:05 pm)
Washington at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)
Arizona at San Diego
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact