Havok1517 wrote:Hey remember this thread? thejusman1 takes major beating and West came the closest the predicting CarGo's 2010 season at the end.
Maybe I was mistaken about CarGo, but he is a product of Coors Field. He is barely fantasy-relevant on the road. I pray you, and others like you, draft him in the 1st next year and allow me to take Braun/Utley with a 2nd round pick.
Really hate to beat a dead horse on this, and I've said it before, but Gonzalez' walk rate doesn't sniff the other MVP candidates--really, it's not even close. When you are a candidate for the MVP as a power hitter, and Brett Gardner obliterates your walk rate, it's hard to take one seriously; in fact, Gonzalez' walk rate bears a striking resemblance to that of David Eckstein. Yes, Gonzalez is very busy knocking the crap out of the ball, but so are Albert Pujols and Joey Votto, and they still find time to walk prodigiously.
Havok1517 wrote:Hey remember this thread? thejusman1 takes major beating and West came the closest the predicting CarGo's 2010 season at the end.
Maybe I was mistaken about CarGo, but he is a product of Coors Field. He is barely fantasy-relevant on the road. I pray you, and others like you, draft him in the 1st next year and allow me to take Braun/Utley with a 2nd round pick.
God I am so sick of hearing this. Yall do realize there are many other players that are in the same list as CarGo with home/away splits that are still way up lists, right? I mean come on, he accumulated those stats, regardless of where they are he still PRODUCED those stats. Lets take a look at this and see what yall think:
Player A: Home: 61R, 17HR, 62RBI, .298AVE Away: 40R, 13HR, 37RBI, .233 (5 Less ABs on the road)
So should we just avoid all of those players also, because their home stats shouldn't count because there is such a bad split? If thats the case then go now and drop Teixeira, Hamilton, Halladay, Wainwright and Sabathia. I mean point blank stats are stats, benefit to CarGo cuz he plays in a hitters park. Unless he is traded or somehow leaves Coors then yes hes a Coors field product, but as long as hes there he will produce those stats obviously. I just don't think its fair to slam CarGo because of the park he plays in when Wainwright and Carpenter pitch in the 2nd best pitchers park in the league, yet they don't get hammered for that. What about the absolute launch pads Teix and Hamilton play in? Take their away stats and double them, if they didn't play in their respected parks, and they become very average players at best.
Fallout wrote:Really hate to beat a dead horse on this, and I've said it before, but Gonzalez' walk rate doesn't sniff the other MVP candidates--really, it's not even close. When you are a candidate for the MVP as a power hitter, and Brett Gardner obliterates your walk rate, it's hard to take one seriously; in fact, Gonzalez' walk rate bears a striking resemblance to that of David Eckstein. Yes, Gonzalez is very busy knocking the crap out of the ball, but so are Albert Pujols and Joey Votto, and they still find time to walk prodigiously.
Really? REALLY? Walk rate? Are you serious, if thats the case then Pujols' and Votto's speed and defensive position skill doesn't even come close to comparison to CarGo, if your gonna get that tacky. Also referring to CarGo as a 'power hitter' is a bit of a stretch, hes a 5-tool guy that has some explosive pop. I mean when you think of a power hitter do you really think of a 6'1" 201LB CFer or a 6'3" 230LB corner infielder?
Moving to the next comment---the walk rate comparison of the 3. Lets then take a look at the Ks/AB of the three. If you do this then Votto can't even be in the talks. He has 10 less Ks, but 20 less hits in 30 less ABs. So lets think about that give Votto those 30ABs and he will have produced more Ks and less hits then CarGo.
Lets also make put light on the fact that unlike Pujols and Votto, Gonzalez hasn't batted out of the #3 hole all year, in fact he started and batted a lot of the beginning of the season in #1 or #5 hole.
Of course ballpark factors matter in fantasy. I'm not saying CarGo is less appealing because he plays in Coors Field, because that would be an absurd statement. It's just his home/away splits are so extreme that it makes me doubt his ability to replicate his numbers next year.
Teix still has a career .858 away OPS.
Hamilton's away numbers look pretty good.
In his short career, CarGo has a .760 OPS away, and a 1.233 at home!!! That is pretty extreme. Even Holliday, that other product of Coors Field, had a career .900 OPS away. Granted, I am willing to concede that CarGo is a young player and maybe he's not fully comfortable yet with playing on the road... but excuse me for thinking some serious regression is due for CarGo next year.
I fail to see how talking about his walk rate is tacky. A player's obp is a great indicator of his skill at the plate. The point of hitting is getting on base, and both Votto and Pujols do that at a much higher rate than Gonzalez. I'm not saying that Gonzalez isn't faster and a superior defender for his position, but simply at the plate he is not as skilled as the other candidates.
The fact that Votto has less ABs is predicated on his ability to draw more walks--and, if I want to get tacky, I'd ask if Gonzalez' 20 more hits is more valuable than Votto's 49 more walks. In 503 ABs this year, Gonzalez has managed only 2 more walks than he did the year before with merely 278 ABs.
And if you want to compare K rate, Pujols has 63 Ks in the same amount of ABs as Gonzalez, as well as more walks than strikeouts.
I'm just trying to make the comparison of them as hitters to explain Gonzalez' stature among the other elite players in the NL. Avg is something that may fluctuate GREATLY over the course of two years--ask Pablo Sandoval owners, and it is more difficult to pronounce a player as truly emerging when his OBP doesn't stand much taller than his avg. This is all I care to write on Gonzalez for now, because I do believe that the comparison of him to other elite hitters is absurd and not worth discussing, so suffice to say that there are holes in Gonzalez' armor, which is not to say that his armor is not shining brightly.
Fallout wrote:Really hate to beat a dead horse on this, and I've said it before, but Gonzalez' walk rate doesn't sniff the other MVP candidates--really, it's not even close. When you are a candidate for the MVP as a power hitter, and Brett Gardner obliterates your walk rate, it's hard to take one seriously
ahahahaaaaaha so now walk rate is the most important metric used to judge a hitters value.
forget about hits, OPS, avg, runs scored, rbi, stolen bases and all those other meaningless stats that dont have any impact on a teams chances to win a game. lets just focus on walks. thats right... good old fashioned base on balls!
phewwwww close one.... hope everyone doesnt notice that walk rate is the ONLY stat that Gonzalez isnt at or near the very top of the leauge lead in! -Fallout September 7, 2010
Last edited by cs3 on Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
thejusman1 wrote: Maybe I was mistaken about CarGo, but he is a product of Coors Field. He is barely fantasy-relevant on the road. I pray you, and others like you, draft him in the 1st next year and allow me to take Braun/Utley with a 2nd round pick.
God I am so sick of hearing this. Yall do realize there are many other players that are in the same list as CarGo with home/away splits that are still way up lists, right? I mean come on, he accumulated those stats, regardless of where they are he still PRODUCED those stats. Lets take a look at this and see what yall think:
Player A: Home: 61R, 17HR, 62RBI, .298AVE Away: 40R, 13HR, 37RBI, .233 (5 Less ABs on the road)
So should we just avoid all of those players also, because their home stats shouldn't count because there is such a bad split? If thats the case then go now and drop Teixeira, Hamilton, Halladay, Wainwright and Sabathia. I mean point blank stats are stats, benefit to CarGo cuz he plays in a hitters park. Unless he is traded or somehow leaves Coors then yes hes a Coors field product, but as long as hes there he will produce those stats obviously. I just don't think its fair to slam CarGo because of the park he plays in when Wainwright and Carpenter pitch in the 2nd best pitchers park in the league, yet they don't get hammered for that. What about the absolute launch pads Teix and Hamilton play in? Take their away stats and double them, if they didn't play in their respected parks, and they become very average players at best.
amen brotha
ive been trying to say the exact same thing in the other Carlos Gonzalez thread
Fallout wrote:Really hate to beat a dead horse on this, and I've said it before, but Gonzalez' walk rate doesn't sniff the other MVP candidates--really, it's not even close. When you are a candidate for the MVP as a power hitter, and Brett Gardner obliterates your walk rate, it's hard to take one seriously; in fact, Gonzalez' walk rate bears a striking resemblance to that of David Eckstein. Yes, Gonzalez is very busy knocking the crap out of the ball, but so are Albert Pujols and Joey Votto, and they still find time to walk prodigiously.
And they don't steal as many bases or play a meaningful position. Walks aren't everything. Ichiro doesn't walk
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by acsguitar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:49 pm 
