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Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:38 am

lol he's dug himself quite a hole.

i'd stop now and take my losses.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby thejusman1 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:26 am

West wrote:
thejusman1 wrote:
Surfs up wrote:I traded away Dukes who in my mind is dead wood anyway. I also received Feliz the kid from Texas for Romero who has two tough outtings coming up and I need help with my Whip and ERA.


See, that's a fantastic trade. Dukes has upside, but isn't performing at all and hardly anything decent. I have no qualms with trading these fringe players and hoping to land the proverbial lightning in a bottle. Straight-up trades like that are kinda odd, though. Dukes plays OF and so does CGonz. It's like saying, "I think your guy is better than my guy at the exact same position, let's switch!" A more realistic trade would be sending a useful reliever, or a back-end starting pitcher, or another positional player. In that case, I don't subscribe to the belief that trading away a piece like Jim Johnson (34%) or a back-end pitcher like Hiroki Kuroda (24% owned) would be worth it, because players who have hot streaks like CGonz (16% owned) are a dime a dozen, and fade relatively quickly.


Alright... you've made your completely asinine...utterly obvious...point.. young players are unpredictable and unproven and you shouldn't trade too much value for them. OH please, let me hang out with you some more so that your infinite wisdom can rub off on me?

Straight-up trades like that are kinda odd, though.

Straight up trades are SO weird. Dukes is slumping, hard. His OPS has been hovering at barely .700 since May. Gonzalez was on fire. (before his hand problems.) Why not make that trade? Wait...it's an outfielder for an outfielder... yeah I shouldn't do that because it's just too obvious. Only really boring, lame managers would make that trade. Not a Maverick like THEJUSMAN!

It's like saying, "I think your guy is better than my guy at the exact same position, let's switch!"

I think "Surfs Up" actually said those EXACT words when he accepted that trade... so weird

You've made it so painfully obvious that you're aware of Gonzalez' major league numbers last year. What you've failed to notice is that at the tender age of 22 most major leaguers not named Pujols aren't able to figure out major league pitching.

And now you say - "But he sucked so bad in those 300 at bats which are such a good indicator of future success so he has no track record blah blah blah"

And now I point you to CGonz's AAA line this year - .339 .418 OBP .630 SLG 1.048 OPS 22:32 BB:SO 10HR 58 RBI in 48 games.
Add to that he's been a highly touted 5 tool prospect since he was in the Diamondbacks system, plus the fact that he now plays half of his games in Colorado in a great lineup on a great team, and you've got a player worth adding. It's a good thing some of us are able to analyze number from more than one year at one level.

"Oh but you shouldn't trade real value for him if you are you're an idiot..."

Just keep on beating that poor dead horse...maybe someone will listen...


Rude. I was saying that the trade doesn't make any sense because it's the exact same position. Who does that? That's like me trying to trade Edwin Jackson for Tim Lincecum. Or swapping Lidge for Mariano Rivera. The only reason I would do a trade based around identical positions is because I thought the player I was acquiring was better than the one I was giving up. So yeah, it's a completely illogical trade, and one that wouldn't happen in most competitive leagues, imo, because the other owner should see that. That other owner got owned. Kudos for the Surfs Up on making a nice trade, even though I don't think CGonz will make or break his playoffs.

My entire argument was based upon the unreliability of rookies or new players, but the thread devolved into the varying definitions of a rookie player. Because people repeatedly failed to understand the point, I illustrated it with numerous examples. I'm glad you could keep up the first time.

Those AAA numbers are nice. Next year, can you invite me to your AAA Fantasy Baseball League? I only play in Fantasy leagues based on the MLB right now, so that would be awesome!

Final note: '08, Oakland: .242/.273/.361 in 302 ABs. Through his first 102 ABs this year, he hit .225/.288/.373. He was such a great, 5-tool prospect that two organizations gave up on him before his "break-out" (read: ridiculously small sample size of like ~70 ABs). Ride the hot streak while you can... regression to the mean is as imminent as your next temper tantrum.
Last edited by thejusman1 on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby thejusman1 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:37 am

AussieDodger wrote:
thejusman1 wrote:Hey, I'm Dan Lambskin, let me bring up another example that isn't applicable because Braun played over 113 games, logging in 450+ ABs in his "rookie year," and CRUSHED the ball and has gone on to become an everyday, franchise, elite slugger, whereas Carlos Gonzales had a very forgettable 302 AB debut last year, and has logged less than 175ABs this year. There are literally hundreds of examples of hot-hand rookies streaking for a few weeks that never amount to anything more than a backup/utility player. If you want to pay to acquire that via trade, be my guest. If you want to thrust that player into your playoff lineups, I hope I'm facing you that week. But selective memory of the very few breakout players who make a significant impact their rookie year is ignoring the overwhelming statistical evidence pointing in the opposite direction.

Here's a more illustrative example:
Chris Davis, 295AB's last year, .285-51-17-55, taken around the 5th-6th round in this year's drafts, even though his K:BB ratio was very poor, and you can still grab a lot of proven, veteran talent in that round. He's the most hyped bust of 2009, and the FA is littered with such examples.


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Sorry if I come off tense. I'm just tired of people comparing rookies to Braun or Lincecum or Pujols, and sounding contemptuous for others who don't believe Player X, Y, or Z is the next "big one." Those studs are the exception, rather than the rule. I think all of us know most nearly every rookie struggles from the go.

Whatever, Rockies lost tonight, so everything is all good.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby Havok1517 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:44 am

thejusman1 wrote:
West wrote:
thejusman1 wrote:
See, that's a fantastic trade. Dukes has upside, but isn't performing at all and hardly anything decent. I have no qualms with trading these fringe players and hoping to land the proverbial lightning in a bottle. Straight-up trades like that are kinda odd, though. Dukes plays OF and so does CGonz. It's like saying, "I think your guy is better than my guy at the exact same position, let's switch!" A more realistic trade would be sending a useful reliever, or a back-end starting pitcher, or another positional player. In that case, I don't subscribe to the belief that trading away a piece like Jim Johnson (34%) or a back-end pitcher like Hiroki Kuroda (24% owned) would be worth it, because players who have hot streaks like CGonz (16% owned) are a dime a dozen, and fade relatively quickly.


Alright... you've made your completely asinine...utterly obvious...point.. young players are unpredictable and unproven and you shouldn't trade too much value for them. OH please, let me hang out with you some more so that your infinite wisdom can rub off on me?

Straight-up trades like that are kinda odd, though.

Straight up trades are SO weird. Dukes is slumping, hard. His OPS has been hovering at barely .700 since May. Gonzalez was on fire. (before his hand problems.) Why not make that trade? Wait...it's an outfielder for an outfielder... yeah I shouldn't do that because it's just too obvious. Only really boring, lame managers would make that trade. Not a Maverick like THEJUSMAN!

It's like saying, "I think your guy is better than my guy at the exact same position, let's switch!"

I think "Surfs Up" actually said those EXACT words when he accepted that trade... so weird

You've made it so painfully obvious that you're aware of Gonzalez' major league numbers last year. What you've failed to notice is that at the tender age of 22 most major leaguers not named Pujols aren't able to figure out major league pitching.

And now you say - "But he sucked so bad in those 300 at bats which are such a good indicator of future success so he has no track record blah blah blah"

And now I point you to CGonz's AAA line this year - .339 .418 OBP .630 SLG 1.048 OPS 22:32 BB:SO 10HR 58 RBI in 48 games.
Add to that he's been a highly touted 5 tool prospect since he was in the Diamondbacks system, plus the fact that he now plays half of his games in Colorado in a great lineup on a great team, and you've got a player worth adding. It's a good thing some of us are able to analyze number from more than one year at one level.

"Oh but you shouldn't trade real value for him if you are you're an idiot..."

Just keep on beating that poor dead horse...maybe someone will listen...


Rude. I was saying that the trade doesn't make any sense because it's the exact same position. Who does that? That's like me trying to trade Edwin Jackson for Tim Lincecum. Or swapping Lidge for Mariano Rivera. The only reason I would do a trade based around identical positions is because I thought the player I was acquiring was better than the one I was giving up. So yeah, it's a completely illogical trade, and one that wouldn't happen in most competitive leagues, imo, because the other owner should see that. That other owner got owned. Kudos for the Surfs Up on making a nice trade, even though I don't think CGonz will make or break his playoffs.

My entire argument was based upon the unreliability of rookies or new players, but the thread devolved into the varying definitions of a rookie player. Because people repeatedly failed to understand the point, I illustrated it with numerous examples. I'm glad you could keep up the first time.

Those AAA numbers are nice. Next year, can you invite me to your AAA Fantasy Baseball League? I only play in Fantasy leagues based on the MLB right now, so that would be awesome!

Final note: '08, Oakland: .242/.273/.361 in 302 ABs. Through his first 102 ABs this year, he hit .225/.288/.373. He was such a great, 5-tool prospect that two organizations gave up on him before his "break-out" (read: ridiculously small sample size). Ride the hot streak while you can... regression to the mean is as imminent as your next temper tantrum.


FAIL. This gets my vote for worst argument of the season. Also, no one gave up on CGon. Teams covet him very highly as he was the main piece in the Holliday and Haren trades.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby thejusman1 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:56 am

Havok1517 wrote:FAIL. This gets my vote for worst argument of the season. Also, no one gave up on CGon. Teams covet him very highly as he was the main piece in the Holliday and Haren trades.


What part did you not understand? I can explain some of it you in simpler English if you wish. Or maybe pictures? I know some people are visual learners.

"No one gave up on CGonz?" What about the Oakland A's and the Diamondbacks? Or does that not compute for you either?
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby West » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:02 am

thejusman1 wrote:That's like me trying to trade Edwin Jackson for Tim Lincecum. Or swapping Lidge for Mariano Rivera. The only reason I would do a trade based around identical positions is because I thought the player I was acquiring was better than the one I was giving up. So yeah, it's a completely illogical trade, and one that wouldn't happen in most competitive leagues, imo, because the other owner should see that. That other owner got owned. Kudos for the Surfs Up on making a nice trade, even though I don't think CGonz will make or break his playoffs.


This is like trying to argue with a brick wall. Just because a player is occupies the same position as the one you are trading for doesn't mean the trade isn't worth making. Sometimes you think the player you're getting is better, sometimes it's because you're getting stronger in a different category through the trade (like trading Manny for Carl Crawford, you give away power, you get speed).

Look, we're not all trying to say that Gonzalez is the next Braun or Pujols. The point that some of us are making is that he actually does have a track record in the minors which indicates the potential for success in the majors.

My entire argument was based upon the unreliability of rookies or new players, but the thread devolved into the varying definitions of a rookie player. Because people repeatedly failed to understand the point, I illustrated it with numerous examples. I'm glad you could keep up the first time.

Those AAA numbers are nice. Next year, can you invite me to your AAA Fantasy Baseball League? I only play in Fantasy leagues based on the MLB right now, so that would be awesome!


You really nailed it here.

Final note: '08, Oakland: .242/.273/.361 in 302 ABs. Through his first 102 ABs this year, he hit .225/.288/.373. He was such a great, 5-tool prospect that two organizations gave up on him before his "break-out" (read: ridiculously small sample size of like ~70 ABs). Ride the hot streak while you can... regression to the mean is as imminent as your next temper tantrum.


This is hilarious. If 70 at bats is a "ridiculously small sample size", what does that make 102 at bats? You contradict yourself. I won't go quoting more "insignificant" minor league numbers for you, like his career .832 OPS over 2470 career minor league at bats, since minor league numbers are so useless. I guess none of us should look at them anymore, and we'll just be pleasantly surprised when players like Longoria, Braun and Lincecum actually continue their success in the majors.


thejusman1 wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:FAIL. This gets my vote for worst argument of the season. Also, no one gave up on CGon. Teams covet him very highly as he was the main piece in the Holliday and Haren trades.


What part did you not understand? I can explain some of it you in simpler English if you wish. Or maybe pictures? I know some people are visual learners.

"No one gave up on CGonz?" What about the Oakland A's and the Diamondbacks? Or does that not compute for you either?



No, more importantly, what part did YOU not understand?? The A's and Dbacks DIDN'T GIVE UP ON GONZALEZ. Beat that through your skull. I love how Havok explained that to you and then you skipped right over it and kept insulting people. He was the 3rd best prospect in their system and 18th best in all the minors when the Dbacks traded him along with, among others, Brett Anderson, for DAN HAREN. After a short stay with the A's, he was traded with Greg Smith and Huston Street for MATT HOLLIDAY. So yeah, those two organizations really gave up on him. They really gave up on him and got nothing in return, just a top 10 pitcher and an elite outfielder. Really awful moves there.

Just realize that you have no idea what you're talking about and we might make some progress in this thread.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby bigh0rt » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:21 am

thejusman1 wrote:Those AAA numbers are nice. Next year, can you invite me to your AAA Fantasy Baseball League? I only play in Fantasy leagues based on the MLB right now, so that would be awesome!

Final note: '08, Oakland: .242/.273/.361 in 302 ABs. Through his first 102 ABs this year, he hit .225/.288/.373. He was such a great, 5-tool prospect that two organizations gave up on him before his "break-out" (read: ridiculously small sample size of like ~70 ABs). Ride the hot streak while you can... regression to the mean is as imminent as your next temper tantrum.

At this point you just sound absolutely foolish and have dug yourself into an insurmountable hole. I'm waiting for you to next say he doesn't have the "look" of a good hitter.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby AquaMan2342 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:28 am

bigh0rt wrote:
thejusman1 wrote:Those AAA numbers are nice. Next year, can you invite me to your AAA Fantasy Baseball League? I only play in Fantasy leagues based on the MLB right now, so that would be awesome!

Final note: '08, Oakland: .242/.273/.361 in 302 ABs. Through his first 102 ABs this year, he hit .225/.288/.373. He was such a great, 5-tool prospect that two organizations gave up on him before his "break-out" (read: ridiculously small sample size of like ~70 ABs). Ride the hot streak while you can... regression to the mean is as imminent as your next temper tantrum.

At this point you just sound absolutely foolish and have dug yourself into an insurmountable hole. I'm waiting for you to next say he doesn't have the "look" of a good hitter.


But he doesn't.......
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby thejusman1 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:51 am

West wrote:This is like trying to argue with a brick wall. Just because a player is occupies the same position as the one you are trading for doesn't mean the trade isn't worth making. Sometimes you think the player you're getting is better, sometimes it's because you're getting stronger in a different category through the trade (like trading Manny for Carl Crawford, you give away power, you get speed).

Look, we're not all trying to say that Gonzalez is the next Braun or Pujols. The point that some of us are making is that he actually does have a track record in the minors which indicates the potential for success in the majors.

This is hilarious. If 70 at bats is a "ridiculously small sample size", what does that make 102 at bats? You contradict yourself. I won't go quoting more "insignificant" minor league numbers for you, like his career .832 OPS over 2470 career minor league at bats, since minor league numbers are so useless. I guess none of us should look at them anymore, and we'll just be pleasantly surprised when players like Longoria, Braun and Lincecum actually continue their success in the majors.

No, more importantly, what part did YOU not understand?? The A's and Dbacks DIDN'T GIVE UP ON GONZALEZ. Beat that through your skull. I love how Havok explained that to you and then you skipped right over it and kept insulting people. He was the 3rd best prospect in their system and 18th best in all the minors when the Dbacks traded him along with, among others, Brett Anderson, for DAN HAREN. After a short stay with the A's, he was traded with Greg Smith and Huston Street for MATT HOLLIDAY. So yeah, those two organizations really gave up on him. They really gave up on him and got nothing in return, just a top 10 pitcher and an elite outfielder. Really awful moves there.

Just realize that you have no idea what you're talking about and we might make some progress in this thread.


I KNOW THE TRADE WAS WORTH IT. I KNOW IT WAS A GOOD TRADE FOR SURFS UP. I JUST SAID IT WAS ODD/UNUSUAL/STRANGE/ILLOGICAL/RARE BECAUSE IT'S A 1-1 AND THE OTHER OWNER SHOULD SEE QUITE CLEARLY HE'S GETTING THE SHORTER END OF THE STICK. IF I COULD DO THAT IN MY LEAGUE, I WOULD, BUT UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T PLAY WITH PEOPLE THAT STUPID. GOD, I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I CAN REPEAT THIS WITHOUT PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING.

Don't speak for your fellow Cafe members. There were all-the-way comparisons made to Braun/Lincecum, or at least CGonz having that similar immediate rookie impact. You can't back-track just because that hurts your argument.

404 combined MLB ABs is a sample size, albeit small. 70 ABs is nothing, and everyone is getting worked up over it. The kid is still 23!!! Minor league numbers are great, but again, we don't play AAA Fantasy Baseball, and he's had growing pains. Do you want to rely on growing pains right now????

And yeah, the Dbacks and A's did give up on him. Both organizations are small market teams that would love to have a price-controlled stud from their own farm system. CGonz was talented but frustrating, and they both gave up on him and shipped him elsewhere. Regardless of the haul in return, they GAVE UP ON HIM. HE'S NO LONGER PART OF THEIR ORGANIZATION. I ALSO DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH MORE CLEARLY THIS CAN BE SAID.

I'm done with this thread, you all can return to raving about how much of a stud this kid is and have him bust you out of Round 1 in the playoffs by posting an 0/28 week.

Rockies suck, Carlos Gonzalez sucks, and you have all made me eternally hate my first non-Yankee, non-Barry Bonds, MLB player.
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Re: Carlos Gonzalez, OF COL

Postby ayebatter » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:49 pm

thejusman1 wrote:
Rockies suck, Carlos Gonzalez sucks, and you have all made me eternally hate my first non-Yankee, non-Barry Bonds, MLB player.


For someone sportin' a BC logo, that obviously refers to football and all that it implies, you should watch who you're hatin', and why you're hatin' them.
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