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yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:15 pm

DVauthrin wrote:If you use yahoo ranks(or any other provider's ranks) as the primary reason for accepting or declining a trade you deserve what you get.

even if one didn't, do you expect everyone else in the league not to? stop acting thick, as much as we might not agree with the rankings, they need to show some accuracy for the sake of player evaluation especially during trades. you cannot deny it plays a huge role in trades going down so don't act like a smartass and be condescending.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby DVauthrin » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:40 pm

BitterDodgerFan wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:If you use yahoo ranks(or any other provider's ranks) as the primary reason for accepting or declining a trade you deserve what you get.

even if one didn't, do you expect everyone else in the league not to? stop acting thick, as much as we might not agree with the rankings, they need to show some accuracy for the sake of player evaluation especially during trades. you cannot deny it plays a huge role in trades going down so don't act like a smartass and be condescending.


First of all I apologize for my tone in the previous post. Now back to the topic at hand.

The only leagues I would expect yahoo ranks to play a huge role in trades are public leagues. In custom/private leagues, I expect owners to not simply look at player X's yahoo rank of 100 compared to player Y's yahoo rank of 200 and accept the deal based on that alone. especially when trading pitcher for hitter, closer for starting pitcher, etc. So, no, I don't think it's a big deal in private/custom leagues.

Also, the yahoo ranks should have no bearing on any owner's player evaluation process concerning trade offers. You use the season/monthy/weekly stats, past performance, etc of the player's involved to judge trades.

Lastly, I absolutely think the rankings need to be fixed and be as accurate as possible.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby fezzik » Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:30 am

DVauthrin wrote:
BitterDodgerFan wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:If you use yahoo ranks(or any other provider's ranks) as the primary reason for accepting or declining a trade you deserve what you get.

even if one didn't, do you expect everyone else in the league not to? stop acting thick, as much as we might not agree with the rankings, they need to show some accuracy for the sake of player evaluation especially during trades. you cannot deny it plays a huge role in trades going down so don't act like a smartass and be condescending.


First of all I apologize for my tone in the previous post. Now back to the topic at hand.

The only leagues I would expect yahoo ranks to play a huge role in trades are public leagues. In custom/private leagues, I expect owners to not simply look at player X's yahoo rank of 100 compared to player Y's yahoo rank of 200 and accept the deal based on that alone. especially when trading pitcher for hitter, closer for starting pitcher, etc. So, no, I don't think it's a big deal in private/custom leagues.

Also, the yahoo ranks should have no bearing on any owner's player evaluation process concerning trade offers. You use the season/monthy/weekly stats, past performance, etc of the player's involved to judge trades.

Lastly, I absolutely think the rankings need to be fixed and be as accurate as possible.


I think you're confused about which rankings are being critiqued and discussed. You repeatedly say "yahoo rank", but what we're discussing here is how they evaluate the actual statistics. We're not talking about their subjective O-Rank, but rather their processing/interpretation of the current season's stats...a ranking based solely on their current numbers. So like you said, it might be good to sort by the past months stats and see who's hot...the easiest way would be to sort by actual rank (based solely on their current season's numbers) after selecting the filter, but if the resulting data is skewed/inaccurate then that could cause problems in your evaluation. If you sort by individual category instead of getting a general sense of who's doing well, then the rankings don't come into play...but IMO that's an ineffective technique unless you're only concerned with a specific scoring category...which does happen if you're trying to find SBs or Saves, but from my experience is not the case in general.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby DVauthrin » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:39 am

fezzik wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
BitterDodgerFan wrote:even if one didn't, do you expect everyone else in the league not to? stop acting thick, as much as we might not agree with the rankings, they need to show some accuracy for the sake of player evaluation especially during trades. you cannot deny it plays a huge role in trades going down so don't act like a smartass and be condescending.


First of all I apologize for my tone in the previous post. Now back to the topic at hand.

The only leagues I would expect yahoo ranks to play a huge role in trades are public leagues. In custom/private leagues, I expect owners to not simply look at player X's yahoo rank of 100 compared to player Y's yahoo rank of 200 and accept the deal based on that alone. especially when trading pitcher for hitter, closer for starting pitcher, etc. So, no, I don't think it's a big deal in private/custom leagues.

Also, the yahoo ranks should have no bearing on any owner's player evaluation process concerning trade offers. You use the season/monthy/weekly stats, past performance, etc of the player's involved to judge trades.

Lastly, I absolutely think the rankings need to be fixed and be as accurate as possible.


I think you're confused about which rankings are being critiqued and discussed. You repeatedly say "yahoo rank", but what we're discussing here is how they evaluate the actual statistics. We're not talking about their subjective O-Rank, but rather their processing/interpretation of the current season's stats...a ranking based solely on their current numbers. So like you said, it might be good to sort by the past months stats and see who's hot...the easiest way would be to sort by actual rank (based solely on their current season's numbers) after selecting the filter, but if the resulting data is skewed/inaccurate then that could cause problems in your evaluation. If you sort by individual category instead of getting a general sense of who's doing well, then the rankings don't come into play...but IMO that's an ineffective technique unless you're only concerned with a specific scoring category...which does happen if you're trying to find SBs or Saves, but from my experience is not the case in general.


I'm not confused about anything. When I say yahoo rank, I'm talking about the current ranking given to each player in a trade proposal. For example in a trade of Chone Figgins for Dustin Pedroia straight up, figgins rates as the 27th best player compared to pedroia being number 65 so far this season. However, you can look at the stats and see the reason figgins has the advantage is because of his steals. plus, his dual position eligibility doesn't hurt. I don't need to know figgins is ranked 27th and pedroia 65th to make a judgment on that offer. I see them as very comparable values, so the extra player involved to get figgins would not need to be another stud, but merely a solid player.

Now there are guys who present dilemmas with their rankings. For example, Carlos Pena, K-Rod and Adrian Gonzalez come to mind. These three guys have actual rankings in the top 100(pena=93, k-rod=98, gonzalez=88) even though they have not done much for a few months now. Conversely Gavin Floyd is ranked 289, Chad Billingsley 272, and Jon Lester 276. IMHO all 3 in a redraft league are fair one for one swaps of Pena, K-Rod and even Gonzalez right now. However, I can make that same evaluation without the ranking involved.

I can see by the overall stats that Pena gives me 3 categories while hurting me in 1, and lester, floyd and billingsley give me at least 3 categories. Gonzalez is also a 3 category player right now, though like pena he's a weak one because his rbi/run totals aren't great. K-Rod on the surface looks like he gives owners 3 categories(saves, era, whip), but when you factor in innings pitched he's a one category player. Then if I look at the last month production with Floyd or Lester versus Pena, Gonzo or K-Rod it becomes obvious. Billingsley has struggled like the other 3 the last month, so that would be an even gamble for both sides at this point.

The bottom line is I never needed to know yahoo's current ranking of those 6 players to figure out who has been playing better of late, or how many categories each player gives me. By knowing who is playing better of late and/or how many categories they provide, I can judge their overall value against each other.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby fezzik » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:32 am

Ok, glad to hear you're not confused. I think an accurate ranking system is a useful tool. ;-D
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby markj11 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:45 am

DVauthrin wrote:
fezzik wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
First of all I apologize for my tone in the previous post. Now back to the topic at hand.

The only leagues I would expect yahoo ranks to play a huge role in trades are public leagues. In custom/private leagues, I expect owners to not simply look at player X's yahoo rank of 100 compared to player Y's yahoo rank of 200 and accept the deal based on that alone. especially when trading pitcher for hitter, closer for starting pitcher, etc. So, no, I don't think it's a big deal in private/custom leagues.

Also, the yahoo ranks should have no bearing on any owner's player evaluation process concerning trade offers. You use the season/monthy/weekly stats, past performance, etc of the player's involved to judge trades.

Lastly, I absolutely think the rankings need to be fixed and be as accurate as possible.


I think you're confused about which rankings are being critiqued and discussed. You repeatedly say "yahoo rank", but what we're discussing here is how they evaluate the actual statistics. We're not talking about their subjective O-Rank, but rather their processing/interpretation of the current season's stats...a ranking based solely on their current numbers. So like you said, it might be good to sort by the past months stats and see who's hot...the easiest way would be to sort by actual rank (based solely on their current season's numbers) after selecting the filter, but if the resulting data is skewed/inaccurate then that could cause problems in your evaluation. If you sort by individual category instead of getting a general sense of who's doing well, then the rankings don't come into play...but IMO that's an ineffective technique unless you're only concerned with a specific scoring category...which does happen if you're trying to find SBs or Saves, but from my experience is not the case in general.


I'm not confused about anything. When I say yahoo rank, I'm talking about the current ranking given to each player in a trade proposal. For example in a trade of Chone Figgins for Dustin Pedroia straight up, figgins rates as the 27th best player compared to pedroia being number 65 so far this season. However, you can look at the stats and see the reason figgins has the advantage is because of his steals. plus, his dual position eligibility doesn't hurt. I don't need to know figgins is ranked 27th and pedroia 65th to make a judgment on that offer. I see them as very comparable values, so the extra player involved to get figgins would not need to be another stud, but merely a solid player.

Now there are guys who present dilemmas with their rankings. For example, Carlos Pena, K-Rod and Adrian Gonzalez come to mind. These three guys have actual rankings in the top 100(pena=93, k-rod=98, gonzalez=88) even though they have not done much for a few months now. Conversely Gavin Floyd is ranked 289, Chad Billingsley 272, and Jon Lester 276. IMHO all 3 in a redraft league are fair one for one swaps of Pena, K-Rod and even Gonzalez right now. However, I can make that same evaluation without the ranking involved.

I can see by the overall stats that Pena gives me 3 categories while hurting me in 1, and lester, floyd and billingsley give me at least 3 categories. Gonzalez is also a 3 category player right now, though like pena he's a weak one because his rbi/run totals aren't great. K-Rod on the surface looks like he gives owners 3 categories(saves, era, whip), but when you factor in innings pitched he's a one category player. Then if I look at the last month production with Floyd or Lester versus Pena, Gonzo or K-Rod it becomes obvious. Billingsley has struggled like the other 3 the last month, so that would be an even gamble for both sides at this point.

The bottom line is I never needed to know yahoo's current ranking of those 6 players to figure out who has been playing better of late, or how many categories each player gives me. By knowing who is playing better of late and/or how many categories they provide, I can judge their overall value against each other.


Nice, why don't you put that in a algorithm and give it to Genie.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby DVauthrin » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:30 am

markj11 wrote:
DVauthrin wrote:
fezzik wrote:
I think you're confused about which rankings are being critiqued and discussed. You repeatedly say "yahoo rank", but what we're discussing here is how they evaluate the actual statistics. We're not talking about their subjective O-Rank, but rather their processing/interpretation of the current season's stats...a ranking based solely on their current numbers. So like you said, it might be good to sort by the past months stats and see who's hot...the easiest way would be to sort by actual rank (based solely on their current season's numbers) after selecting the filter, but if the resulting data is skewed/inaccurate then that could cause problems in your evaluation. If you sort by individual category instead of getting a general sense of who's doing well, then the rankings don't come into play...but IMO that's an ineffective technique unless you're only concerned with a specific scoring category...which does happen if you're trying to find SBs or Saves, but from my experience is not the case in general.


I'm not confused about anything. When I say yahoo rank, I'm talking about the current ranking given to each player in a trade proposal. For example in a trade of Chone Figgins for Dustin Pedroia straight up, figgins rates as the 27th best player compared to pedroia being number 65 so far this season. However, you can look at the stats and see the reason figgins has the advantage is because of his steals. plus, his dual position eligibility doesn't hurt. I don't need to know figgins is ranked 27th and pedroia 65th to make a judgment on that offer. I see them as very comparable values, so the extra player involved to get figgins would not need to be another stud, but merely a solid player.

Now there are guys who present dilemmas with their rankings. For example, Carlos Pena, K-Rod and Adrian Gonzalez come to mind. These three guys have actual rankings in the top 100(pena=93, k-rod=98, gonzalez=88) even though they have not done much for a few months now. Conversely Gavin Floyd is ranked 289, Chad Billingsley 272, and Jon Lester 276. IMHO all 3 in a redraft league are fair one for one swaps of Pena, K-Rod and even Gonzalez right now. However, I can make that same evaluation without the ranking involved.

I can see by the overall stats that Pena gives me 3 categories while hurting me in 1, and lester, floyd and billingsley give me at least 3 categories. Gonzalez is also a 3 category player right now, though like pena he's a weak one because his rbi/run totals aren't great. K-Rod on the surface looks like he gives owners 3 categories(saves, era, whip), but when you factor in innings pitched he's a one category player. Then if I look at the last month production with Floyd or Lester versus Pena, Gonzo or K-Rod it becomes obvious. Billingsley has struggled like the other 3 the last month, so that would be an even gamble for both sides at this point.

The bottom line is I never needed to know yahoo's current ranking of those 6 players to figure out who has been playing better of late, or how many categories each player gives me. By knowing who is playing better of late and/or how many categories they provide, I can judge their overall value against each other.


Nice, why don't you put that in a algorithm and give it to Genie.


Advanced math was never a strong point of mine. :-b In all seriousness, any ranking system is doomed to some flaw because of its subjective nature. You might ask how can it be subjective if it's done via algorithm, but somebody had to come up with the different weights for categories in said algorithm.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby DVauthrin » Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:36 am

fezzik wrote:I think an accurate ranking system is a useful tool. ;-D


I agree. Yahoo and other sites should always be improving their ranking system. However, there is no such thing as a perfectly accurate ranking system. Somebody has to create the formula for the rankings, which means there is inherent bias present.
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby jackie hayes » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:53 pm

DVauthrin wrote:Advanced math was never a strong point of mine. :-b In all seriousness, any ranking system is doomed to some flaw because of its subjective nature. You might ask how can it be subjective if it's done via algorithm, but somebody had to come up with the different weights for categories in said algorithm.


The category "weights" come from the game itself. In this case, each cat is weighted equally in the game (in h2h, a win in avg is the same as a win in hrs, in roto, an 8 in avg is the worth as much as 8 in runs), and so, as Genie said, the weights for each category are equal. There's no subjectivity in that.

The tricky part is that there is no such thing as a universal ranking. Rajai Davis might be quite valuable to someone right now, but entirely worthless to someone in last place who's 50 steals behind 2nd-to-last. Averaging over different situations isn't easy (not to mention setups -- roto and h2h rankings really shouldn't be confused, but virtually all ranking systems just toss the two setups together). You have to consider the replacement player, the position in the rankings, the positions of everyone else in the rankings, etc etc etc. I wouldn't really call this sort of thing "subjective", although it does involve judgement (so it's a grey area).

The one truly subjective element that will always be there is simply that you have to assume what the player is shooting for. Is the objective to win the league, only, or is there some value to finishing second instead of tenth?
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Re: yahoo's season pitcher rankings messed up?

Postby Fantasy Sports Genie » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:44 pm

Bwa ha ha...

So it is a Friday, which lends itself to such things. I dove in, and think I have the weirdness sorted out. Included below is a sampling. See what you think. Not looking for "Why is X higher than Y?", "Why do you have X at 37 when SoandSo has them at 39?", etc. etc. More a high level view of, "Yeah, that looks more like it.", or "Those are still seriously jacked up."

Assuming they are indeed better, we'll keep them to ourself per BitterDodgerFan's suggestion that we not change them during the year ;-) In all seriousness, if we see bugs on the site, we're going to try to fix them. That is sorta how it works.

1. Albert Pujols (StL - 1B)
2. Dan Haren (Ari - SP)
3. Tim Lincecum (SF - SP)
4. Carl Crawford (TB - OF)
5. Mark Reynolds (Ari - 1B,3B)
6. Ryan Braun (Mil - OF)
7. Justin Morneau (Min - 1B)
8. Hanley Ram?rez (Fla - SS)
9. Chase Utley (Phi - 2B)
10. Prince Fielder (Mil - 1B)
11. Zack Greinke (KC - SP)
12. Bobby Abreu (LAA - OF)
13. Matt Kemp (LAD - OF)
14. Roy Halladay (Tor - SP)
15. Javier V?zquez (Atl - SP)
16. Ryan Zimmerman (Was - 3B)
17. Matt Cain (SF - SP)
18. Justin Upton (Ari - OF)
19. Chris Carpenter (StL - SP)
20. Mark Teixeira (NYY - 1B)
21. F?lix Hern?ndez (Sea - SP)
22. Ra?l Iba?ez (Phi - OF)
23. Justin Verlander (Det - SP)
24. David Wright (NYM - 3B)
25. Aaron Hill (Tor - 2B)
26. Ichiro Suzuki (Sea - OF)
27. Chone Figgins (LAA - 2B,3B)
28. Johnny Damon (NYY - OF)
29. Adam Jones (Bal - OF)
30. Jayson Werth (Phi - OF)
31. Kevin Youkilis (Bos - 1B,3B)
32. Jacoby Ellsbury (Bos - OF)
33. Josh Beckett (Bos - SP)
34. Joe Mauer (Min - C)
35. Josh Johnson (Fla - SP)
36. Miguel Cabrera (Det - 1B,3B)
37. Adam Lind (Tor - OF)
38. Derek Jeter (NYY - SS)
39. Ian Kinsler (Tex - 2B)
40. Edwin Jackson (Det - SP)
41. Adam Dunn (Was - 1B,OF)
42. Jonathan Broxton (LAD - RP)
43. Shane Victorino (Phi - OF)
44. Adam Wainwright (StL - SP)
45. Wandy Rodr?guez (Hou - SP)
46. Robinson Can? (NYY - 2B)
47. Johan Santana (NYM - SP)
48. Matt Holliday (Oak - OF)
49. Andre Ethier (LAD - OF)
50. Ryan Howard (Phi - 1B)
51. Michael Young (Tex - 3B,SS)
52. Dustin Pedroia (Bos - 2B)
53. Torii Hunter (LAA - OF)
54. Pablo Sandoval (SF - C,1B,3B)
55. Jason Bay (Bos - OF)
56. Ben Zobrist (TB - 2B,SS,OF)
57. Evan Longoria (TB - 3B)
58. Nelson Cruz (Tex - OF)
59. Brian Roberts (Bal - 2B)
60. Jason Bartlett (TB - SS)
61. Nick Markakis (Bal - OF)
62. Shin-Soo Choo (Cle - OF)
63. Joe Nathan (Min - RP)
64. Huston Street (Col - RP)
65. Kendry Morales (LAA - 1B,OF)
66. Jermaine Dye (CWS - OF)
67. Mariano Rivera (NYY - RP)
68. Derrek Lee (ChC - 1B)
69. Curtis Granderson (Det - OF)
70. Jarrod Washburn (Sea - SP)
71. Nyjer Morgan (Was - OF)
72. Michael Bourn (Hou - OF)
73. Brad Hawpe (Col - OF)
74. Andrew Bailey (Oak - RP)
75. Brandon Phillips (Cin - 2B)
76. Troy Tulowitzki (Col - SS)
77. David Aardsma (Sea - RP)
78. V?ctor Mart?nez (Cle - C,1B)
79. Heath Bell (SD - RP)
80. J.A. Happ (Phi - SP,RP)
81. J.P. Howell (TB - RP)
82. Marco Scutaro (Tor - 2B,3B,SS)
83. Cliff Lee (Cle - SP)
84. Carlos Lee (Hou - OF)
85. Yovani Gallardo (Mil - SP)
86. Miguel Tejada (Hou - SS)
87. Jered Weaver (LAA - SP)
88. Adri?n Gonz?lez (SD - 1B)
89. Jair Jurrjens (Atl - SP)
90. Paul Konerko (CWS - 1B)
91. Clayton Kershaw (LAD - SP)
92. Nate McLouth (Atl - OF)
93. Ryan Franklin (StL - RP)
94. Ted Lilly (ChC - SP)
95. Joel Pi?eiro (StL - SP)
96. Carlos Pe?a (TB - 1B)
97. Jimmy Rollins (Phi - SS)
98. Brian Wilson (SF - RP)
99. Chad Billingsley (LAD - SP)
100. Juan Rivera (LAA - OF)
101. Randy Wells (ChC - SP,RP)
102. Joey Votto (Cin - 1B)
103. Jon Lester (Bos - SP)
104. Todd Helton (Col - 1B)
105. CC Sabathia (NYY - SP)
106. Rafael Soriano (Atl - RP)
107. Mark Buehrle (CWS - SP)
108. Russell Branyan (Sea - 1B,3B)
109. Matt Garza (TB - SP)
110. Jason Kubel (Min - OF)
111. Casey Blake (LAD - 1B,3B)
112. Matt Guerrier (Min - RP)
113. Michael Cuddyer (Min - OF)
114. Brandon Inge (Det - C,3B,OF)
115. Hunter Pence (Hou - OF)
116. Gavin Floyd (CWS - SP)
117. Francisco Rodr?guez (NYM - RP)
118. Francisco Cordero (Cin - RP)
119. Jonathan Papelbon (Bos - RP)
120. Yunel Escobar (Atl - SS)
121. Asdrubal Cabrera (Cle - 2B,SS)
122. Chipper Jones (Atl - 3B)
123. ?lex R?os (Tor - OF)
124. B.J. Upton (TB - OF)
125. Jason Marquis (Col - SP)
126. Mark DeRosa (StL - 2B,3B,OF)
127. Joakim Soria (KC - RP)
128. Ryan Ludwick (StL - OF)
129. Orlando Hudson (LAD - 2B)
130. Lance Berkman (Hou - 1B)
131. Ubaldo Jim?nez (Col - SP)
132. ?lex Rodr?guez (NYY - 3B)
133. James Loney (LAD - 1B)
134. Roy Oswalt (Hou - SP)
135. Erik Bedard (Sea - SP)
136. Ryan Theriot (ChC - SS)
137. Jim Thome (CWS - Util)
138. Michael Wuertz (Oak - RP)
139. Trevor Hoffman (Mil - RP)
140. Alfonso Soriano (ChC - OF)
141. Scott Rolen (Tor - 3B)
142. Josh Willingham (Was - OF)
143. Denard Span (Min - OF)
144. Randy Wolf (LAD - SP)
145. Cody Ross (Fla - OF)
146. Kevin Millwood (Tex - SP)
147. Frank Francisco (Tex - RP)
148. Jos? L?pez (Sea - 1B,2B)
149. George Sherrill (Bal - RP)
150. Zach Duke (Pit - SP)
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