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I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby bigken117 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:44 pm

Maris09 wrote:Dude, they've been trying to use Buchholz in a VMart trade for a while now.
I don't think they are opposed to moving him.



Dude, reports are the Sox turned it down, straight up.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby thejusman1 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:53 pm

pappymojo wrote:I'm not sure how you can hate Buchholtz for any of this. The Red Sox organization is in charge of whether or not the kid gets traded. If they make a bad decision, that's on them. Not him. Let the kid pitch. Let the kid grow. Let the kid mature.

Plus, you have to consider the future of the rotation. Smoltz and Penny are both under one year contracts. Wakefield is in his 40s and Dice-K has been a bit of a disappointment. Masterson might work as a fifth pitcher. Beyond Lester and Beckett, though, are you truly comfortable putting yourself in a position where you need three of those five pitchers to contribute to your staff next year? If you trade Bowden and Buchholtz for Adrian Gonzalez who is your starting rotation next year?

Granted if you aquire Roy you have three great pitchers, but how long do you have them under contract for?


Agreed. Hate the Red Sox front office for thinking Smoltz/Penny had anything left in their tanks and relying upon them as rotation fixtures. Hate Tim Wakefield for being Tim Wakefield. Hate Dice-K for being absolutely abysmal this year. But the one thing you can't do is hate Clay Bucholz. He is dying to get a starting gig, and it's got to be absolutely frustrating for him not to be pitching in the big show.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby Polar Bear » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:21 pm

pappymojo wrote:I'm not sure how you can hate Buchholtz for any of this. The Red Sox organization is in charge of whether or not the kid gets traded. If they make a bad decision, that's on them. Not him. Let the kid pitch. Let the kid grow. Let the kid mature.

Plus, you have to consider the future of the rotation. Smoltz and Penny are both under one year contracts. Wakefield is in his 40s and Dice-K has been a bit of a disappointment. Masterson might work as a fifth pitcher. Beyond Lester and Beckett, though, are you truly comfortable putting yourself in a position where you need three of those five pitchers to contribute to your staff next year? If you trade Bowden and Buchholtz for Adrian Gonzalez who is your starting rotation next year?

Granted if you aquire Roy you have three great pitchers, but how long do you have them under contract for?


I don't blame Buchholz personally, but I am saying that this guy better be freaking amazing. They have passed on quite a few deals because they were unwilling to trade this guy. If he is that good, then he better start producing. It reminds me of when the Bulls had the opportunity to acquire Kobe Bryant and wouldn't trade Luol Deng and a few other guys for him. It was freaking Kobe Bryant. A few years later Deng is average and Kobe is the best basketball player since Michael Jordan. If the Sox want to keep Bowden then send the Jays Youkilis and Buchholz.

I would plan on keeping Halladay for at least another 3 years after this year. Beckett and Lester are both very young. Also don't forget about Dice-K. If Dice-K can return to form next season, then the Red Sox go 4 deep. They also have that 40 year old knuckler who seems to win 15 games every year pitching in the 5th spot. Their bullpen is one of the better bullpens in the league. They still would have Bard, which brings me to something else.

I would consider moving Paps. Either trade him or make him a starter. I would move Bard into the closer role.

Obviously Roy Halladay is the best fit and I am a little mystified why Epstein is so hesitant in pulling the trigger for a guy who has already proven himself in AL East play. I wouldn't be against getting A-Gon who would be cheaper and would be a very solid hitter for years. He is a great hitter and if he ever gets out of Petco he will flirt with a .300 AVG with 30 HRs and 110 RBIs.

Victor is better than Varitek, but he is not an everyday catcher and I am a little leery of him. He is extremely streaky and is a free swinger. Free Swingers tend to fall off the face of the earth as they get older.

I understand that the farm system is important and I wouldn't deplete it by making deal after deal after deal, but making one big deal every few years won't hurt.

@jusman

Is Buchholz better than Roy Halladay and will he be better than Halladay in the next 3 years?

There is a reason the Sox went out and signed a few old timers. Buchholz was in the rotation last year and was lit up. He has great stuff and great talent, but I don't think he will ever be Roy Halladay. I also think he can be replaced if the Red Sox trade him for A-Gon.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby mweir145 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:24 pm

Polar Bear wrote:He better be good.

If the Red Sox end up without freaking Roy Halladay or Adrian Gonzalez because they were unwilling to part ways with Clay Buchholz, then Buchholz better be a freaking stud. I have been hearing about this guy and how great he is for 3 years now and haven't seen much outside of a no-hitter. As far as I know he could end up being the next Manny Parra.

I think Epstein is awesome and if he would run for president I would probably vote for him, but I am getting tired of the overvaluing of a farm system. This is arguably the best pitcher in baseball. When the best player in baseball is available for prospects, you trade the prospects. The jury is still out on Clay Buchholz, but Roy is a proven pitcher who dominates even in the AL East. Beckett, Halladay, and Lester in a playoff series just sends chills down my spine.

As far as I know, the Jays are the ones who are rejecting Boston's offer right now (which includes Buchholz). Not sure why you would be angry at Clay or Theo.

I think Buchholz will be a successful 2/3 type pitcher in the majors, but he's had problems in the minors getting out lefties.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby Polar Bear » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:32 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Polar Bear wrote:He better be good.

If the Red Sox end up without freaking Roy Halladay or Adrian Gonzalez because they were unwilling to part ways with Clay Buchholz, then Buchholz better be a freaking stud. I have been hearing about this guy and how great he is for 3 years now and haven't seen much outside of a no-hitter. As far as I know he could end up being the next Manny Parra.

I think Epstein is awesome and if he would run for president I would probably vote for him, but I am getting tired of the overvaluing of a farm system. This is arguably the best pitcher in baseball. When the best player in baseball is available for prospects, you trade the prospects. The jury is still out on Clay Buchholz, but Roy is a proven pitcher who dominates even in the AL East. Beckett, Halladay, and Lester in a playoff series just sends chills down my spine.

As far as I know, the Jays are the ones who are rejecting Boston's offer right now (which includes Buchholz). Not sure why you would be angry at Clay or Theo.

I think Buchholz will be a successful 2/3 type pitcher in the majors, but he's had problems in the minors getting out lefties.


Just a figure of speech about hating Buchholz guys. I am more-so just frustrated with the whole thing.

Well anything I have heard suggests that the Red Sox have a high value of Buchholz. Perhaps they offered Buchholz with a couple of lower tier prospects because they feel Buchholz is enough. You are closer to the situation since you are a Toronto guy so you would know better than I would. If that is true, then I guess I will put my shotgun away.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:38 pm

mweir145 wrote:I think Buchholz will be a successful 2/3 type pitcher in the majors, but he's had problems in the minors getting out lefties.


I think he will be an ace but you are right about his lefty problems. The cause is due to his lack of feel for the curve the last two years. It is an amazing pitch but he can't throw it for strikes and his change up is actually better suited against righties than lefties. He needs to get his curve working if he wants to be successful as that is his true K pitch.
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Re: I am quickly beginning to Hate Clay Buchholz

Postby Maris09 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:25 am

bigken117 wrote:
Maris09 wrote:Dude, they've been trying to use Buchholz in a VMart trade for a while now.
I don't think they are opposed to moving him.



Dude, reports are the Sox turned it down, straight up.

Dude, still hearing they are trying to use Buchholz to get VMart.


The Red Sox and Indians discussed a three-way deal Thursday night that would send Victor Martinez to Boston and Clay Buchholz to Cleveland, according to ESPN.com's Jayson Stark
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