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cliff lee to the phillies?

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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby DVauthrin » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:05 pm

Tavish wrote:
RAmst23 wrote:
Havok1517 wrote:
Yep, I think this one comes back to bite the Phillies as the Indians got a steal while the Phillies laid up with Lee when they needed to go for the green with Halladay. I don't think Lee was worth what the Phillies gave up.


Phillies need to make as much of a run right now as they can. They have a very solid core of position players who are in their prime. Yes they gave up some prospects, but now is the time to go for it.

I actually think this was the smart move for the Phillies. This isn't a team that is a few games back on the wild card or division who need that one piece to put them over the top. This is a team that is the defending champs with a 7 game lead in their division. There is really no need to mortgage the future on trying to make a run the next two years when they already have the pieces to make that run right now. They got the upgrade they needed for a short series playoff push, and got him with a much more friendly club option for a run next year. And they got it without really giving up what they feel to be the future of the rotation to go along with Hamels in Happ and Drabek.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:11 pm

The Phillies didn't even have to give up their main prospects for a very good pitcher that will help them down the stretch. Carrasco, Donald, and Marson have serious question marks, and Knapp is only in A ball (and is having shoulder problems). There's nothing wrong with the move from their point of view.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby MasterX1918 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:26 pm

mweir145 wrote:The Phillies didn't even have to give up their main prospects for a very good pitcher that will help them down the stretch. Carrasco, Donald, and Marson have serious question marks, and Knapp is only in A ball (and is having shoulder problems). There's nothing wrong with the move from their point of view.

This is very true but Carrasco and Donald were arguably the Phillies top two prospects, so they definitly (would) give up some of their most prized talent. Not having to deal Happ (who I thought would definitly be involved), Brown or Drabek is huge for them, though. I'm not really sure why Cleveland wants Marson though since they have really good catching talent already (Santana).
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:44 pm

They weren't their top 2 prospects at all after their poor seasons in AAA. Both of them had been surpassed by Brown, Taylor, and Drabek.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby Havok1517 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:00 pm

mweir145 wrote:They weren't their top 2 prospects at all after their poor seasons in AAA. Both of them had been surpassed by Brown, Taylor, and Drabek.


I personally think Carrasco had the most talent of the pitchers the Phillies had to offer.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:04 pm

Havok1517 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:They weren't their top 2 prospects at all after their poor seasons in AAA. Both of them had been surpassed by Brown, Taylor, and Drabek.


I personally think Carrasco had the most talent of the pitchers the Phillies had to offer.

He's still a good prospect, certainly, but Drabek has emerged in a big way this season.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby smoovethug » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:35 pm

I like the deal. The luster seemed to be wearing off on Carrasco, Marson, and Donald and to get a solid front of the line starter is a big boost. Not to mention a much needed RH bat off the bench with some speed in Francisco.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:57 pm

Cliff Lee To Philadelphia
by Dave Cameron - 7/29/2009 - Comments (43)

Ruben Amaro has taken a lot of crap from the sabermetric community since stepping into the role of Phillies GM. He just built himself a really huge wall today, though, with the outstanding acquisition of Cliff Lee. Amazingly enough, he was able to get one of the game's best pitchers without surrendering any of his highly coveted talents.

Instead of giving up J.A. Happ, Kyle Drabek, and Dominic Brown or Michael Taylor to get Roy Halladay, Amaro managed to hang onto all four and get Lee instead. This is simply a fantastic deal for the Phillies, who add a frontline starter for 2009 and 2010 without giving up any players that were going to help their team in the short term.

Lee, you know about - last year's AL Cy Young winner, he reinvented himself and has sustained his excellence this year as an All-Star caliber LHP. The Phillies hold a no-brainer club option for 2010 at just $9 million, making him a massive bargain. He's a top shelf starting pitcher making a fraction of his value and without a long term commitment required. He's an extremely valuable asset.

To get him, they gave up a good teenage arm currently on the DL with shoulder problems in Jason Knapp, a solid pitching prospect that is a lower risk/lower upside guy in Carlos Carrasco, and decent-but-not-great infield prospects in SS/2B Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson.

Put simply, the Indians should have done better than this or just kept Lee. For a +5 win pitcher, they got quantity over quality, and all four of the guys they acquired come with pretty significant question marks. Carrasco's probably the best prospect of the bunch (his upside is lower than Knapp's, but the risk is much, much lower), but none of these guys are premium, high value guys.

Sorry Cleveland - you got hosed here. This is just not a good deal for the Indians in any way, shape, or form. Ruben Amaro just cleaned Mark Shapiro's clock on this trade.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby Yoda » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:18 pm

Great deal for the Phillies based on what we know. They have a great core of players that can help them win in the next few years again.
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Re: cliff lee to the phillies?

Postby MotorCityKitties » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:48 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Cliff Lee To Philadelphia
by Dave Cameron - 7/29/2009 - Comments (43)

Ruben Amaro has taken a lot of crap from the sabermetric community since stepping into the role of Phillies GM. He just built himself a really huge wall today, though, with the outstanding acquisition of Cliff Lee. Amazingly enough, he was able to get one of the game's best pitchers without surrendering any of his highly coveted talents.

Instead of giving up J.A. Happ, Kyle Drabek, and Dominic Brown or Michael Taylor to get Roy Halladay, Amaro managed to hang onto all four and get Lee instead. This is simply a fantastic deal for the Phillies, who add a frontline starter for 2009 and 2010 without giving up any players that were going to help their team in the short term.

Lee, you know about - last year's AL Cy Young winner, he reinvented himself and has sustained his excellence this year as an All-Star caliber LHP. The Phillies hold a no-brainer club option for 2010 at just $9 million, making him a massive bargain. He's a top shelf starting pitcher making a fraction of his value and without a long term commitment required. He's an extremely valuable asset.

To get him, they gave up a good teenage arm currently on the DL with shoulder problems in Jason Knapp, a solid pitching prospect that is a lower risk/lower upside guy in Carlos Carrasco, and decent-but-not-great infield prospects in SS/2B Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson.

Put simply, the Indians should have done better than this or just kept Lee. For a +5 win pitcher, they got quantity over quality, and all four of the guys they acquired come with pretty significant question marks. Carrasco's probably the best prospect of the bunch (his upside is lower than Knapp's, but the risk is much, much lower), but none of these guys are premium, high value guys.

Sorry Cleveland - you got hosed here. This is just not a good deal for the Indians in any way, shape, or form. Ruben Amaro just cleaned Mark Shapiro's clock on this trade.


I don't know much about the prospects Cleveland got in return, but I can say that I don't like this trade for them from a division standpoint. There are 5 mediocre to bad teams in the Central and the tribe could easily be much better next year, but I don't see that happening without Lee.
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