"I value hitters more than pitchers" - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

"I value hitters more than pitchers"

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby prateem » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:42 am

While I am not in a keeper league i am having the same problem trying to move Dan Haren. He is the top pitcher in the yahoo game and yet I can seem to move him for a top 30 hitter. Its getting annoying, but at the same time people love the long ball and I think most fantasy players have that mind set. Most people think they can skate by with mediocre pitching and stack up on bats so for the past two seasons I have decided to build a great pitching staff in my redraft leagues and have avg to decent hitting. It has worked wonders.
prateem
Softball Supervisor
Softball Supervisor


Posts: 86
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby ayebatter » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:57 am

prateem wrote:While I am not in a keeper league i am having the same problem trying to move Dan Haren. He is the top pitcher in the yahoo game and yet I can seem to move him for a top 30 hitter. Its getting annoying, but at the same time people love the long ball and I think most fantasy players have that mind set. Most people think they can skate by with mediocre pitching and stack up on bats so for the past two seasons I have decided to build a great pitching staff in my redraft leagues and have avg to decent hitting. It has worked wondersI.


Until you decide that you too need one of those top hitters that you passed on in the draft, looks like it would have been easier gettin' Haren in a trade than a hitter. :-?
So-Cal 25 Club _762_
ayebatter
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicResponse TeamMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 12181
(Past Year: 1390)
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: I CAN SEE FOR MILES

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby Montana168 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:37 am

it hasn't been said yet so i'll say it, but one of the biggest reasons that most people consider hitters more valuable than pitchers is that hitters play everyday (for the most part) and pitchers pitch every 5 days.
Image
Montana168
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1458
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby great gretzky » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:01 am

Montana168 wrote:it hasn't been said yet so i'll say it, but one of the biggest reasons that most people consider hitters more valuable than pitchers is that hitters play everyday (for the most part) and pitchers pitch every 5 days.


That cuts both ways though. Because then an individual pitcher is responsible for a higher percentage of stats accumulated as opposed to one hitter in a lineup. It's an oversimplification, but a stud can more it a lot. Think back to the dominant PEdro and Santana years, they carried whole staffs.

I think in this instance, the thing I do is just keep one stud pitcher and don't worry about it, because the tiers won't ever sync up in a keeper. The position for a top pitcher relative to his peers compared to the position of the top hitters relative to hid peers doesn't compare well. For example, the Pujols owner is not moving him straight up for Lincecum, redraft or keeper. If you have to trade someone like that, you take a stud bat back and a quality pitcher.

It's too asymmetrical to pull off. You might have to try for someone like bay or something. That type of move might fly.
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3769
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby Magnus_CA » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:01 pm

Excellent topic.

I have also valued hitters much more than pitchers during my fantasy baseball tenure but I may be drafting for more of a balanced roster next year than in years past. What I've noticed this year is roster spots are precious and there is a lot to be said for the opportunity cost of carrying 2 above average pitchers vs one ace. In standard mixed roto 5x5, with a solid rotation of 4 SP and a pen of 3 closers you can keep up with your innings (assume 1250 IP max) and concentrate on offensive waiver wire pickups, where there seems to be a larger pool of talent, especially outfielders. The alternative is having a rotation of 5 or possibly 6 SP, 3 of which are not must starts and play the matchups, where you're bound to get burned. Of course injuries could have a greater impact on a lean rotation but injuries are the bane of a good season no matter what the draft/roster strategy.
Magnus_CA
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2081
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby great gretzky » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:22 pm

The Idea that OF is deep always seemed to me a false proposition. Because basically everyone in a mixed league of 10 or so teams is going to have OFs that are really good in real life. But the problem is, its relative to the other teams in your league, not the player universe. It's kind of like in Fantasy Football. When someone goes "you can get a top 10 QB late." Well, awesome. But you would be in the bottom half of the league at that position. I realize its an oversimplification, but I think the point stands. 3 OFs per team, 10 teams = 30 OFs starting, and even more in bench spots or utility. I think the drops are there to be honest.
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3769
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby RAmst23 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:38 pm

great gretzky wrote:The Idea that OF is deep always seemed to me a false proposition. Because basically everyone in a mixed league of 10 or so teams is going to have OFs that are really good in real life. But the problem is, its relative to the other teams in your league, not the player universe. It's kind of like in Fantasy Football. When someone goes "you can get a top 10 QB late." Well, awesome. But you would be in the bottom half of the league at that position. I realize its an oversimplification, but I think the point stands. 3 OFs per team, 10 teams = 30 OFs starting, and even more in bench spots or utility. I think the drops are there to be honest.


With the OF depth it has more to do with the tiers and how bunched up the players are. You would have a hard time finding a top tier OFer past round 2-3, but the 2nd and third tier OFers can be had later and throughout draft. It's more about being able to find alot of upside and quality bats late in the OF, and not having to waste a 5th round pick on a 2nd tier OF when you can just wait another 4 rounds.
...Boston papers now and then suffer a sharp flurry of arithmetic on this score; indeed, for Williams to have distributed all his hits so they did nobody else any good would constitute a feat of placement unparalleled in the annals of selfishness. -Updike
RAmst23
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1986
(Past Year: 3)
Joined: 6 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Sitting on the steps of Busch Stadium

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby great gretzky » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:54 pm

RAmst23 wrote:
great gretzky wrote:The Idea that OF is deep always seemed to me a false proposition. Because basically everyone in a mixed league of 10 or so teams is going to have OFs that are really good in real life. But the problem is, its relative to the other teams in your league, not the player universe. It's kind of like in Fantasy Football. When someone goes "you can get a top 10 QB late." Well, awesome. But you would be in the bottom half of the league at that position. I realize its an oversimplification, but I think the point stands. 3 OFs per team, 10 teams = 30 OFs starting, and even more in bench spots or utility. I think the drops are there to be honest.


With the OF depth it has more to do with the tiers and how bunched up the players are. You would have a hard time finding a top tier OFer past round 2-3, but the 2nd and third tier OFers can be had later and throughout draft. It's more about being able to find alot of upside and quality bats late in the OF, and not having to waste a 5th round pick on a 2nd tier OF when you can just wait another 4 rounds.


I realize that, but its a subtle, but cascading disadvantage. Because if your "2nd Tier" guys all hit 5-7 hr's less (arbitrary number) that means you have a 15 hr deficit relative to the other people, and this deficit needs to be made up. Again, I am using simple examples, but many players aren't like the posters here. Instead of stats, the think "stud" "really good" "good" "ok" etc. I think its less of an anylytical thing and more of a perception thing.
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3769
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby Shaffe » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:40 pm

FWIW I was able to use the Halladay/Morales package to get Matt Kemp instead of Ryan Braun. He even threw in Gamel for fun, though it's unlikely I'll keep him.

To me a true stud pitcher like Halladay counts toward 4 categories: wins, k's era, and whip - even if wins aren't entirely in his control. Whereas most stud hitters also contribute in 4 categories: avg, runs, rbi, hr. It's the 5 category guys (like Kemp) that become more valuable than stud starters because a starter, no matter how good they are, can't contribute in saves while a hitter can be a major contributor in steals while being studly everywhere else.

But that is rare.
Shaffe
Shaffe
Softball Supervisor
Softball Supervisor


Posts: 46
Joined: 29 May 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Re: "I value hitters more than pitchers"

Postby hot4tx » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:38 pm

First of all there's a reason why you yourself wants to keep a stud hitter instead of a stud pitcher. That's very telling in and of itself.

Not only are elite hitters more valuable for the numerous reasons listed above, but also because of the ability to rotate pitchers in daily lineup leagues. You can have a deep staff of solid, but not elite SPs that you get normally in the 10th-15th rounds, pair them with closers and a few MRP and end up with comparable stats to a top-heavy staff.

We've all read articles showing 3 MRPs equaling the stats of an elite SP, however, you can't use extra batters to patch together an elite hitter. You can't add 3 late round OFs to get your team the same stats a Ryan Braun can produce.
hot4tx
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1933
(Past Year: 135)
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buiviopaufamp, ensanimal, Johnesmype and 6 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Friday, Aug. 29
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Minnesota at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Cincinnati at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
NY Yankees at Toronto
(7:07 pm)
Philadelphia at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
Boston at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Miami at Atlanta
(7:35 pm)
Cleveland at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Texas at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Detroit at Chi White Sox
(8:10 pm)
Chi Cubs at St. Louis
(8:15 pm)
Colorado at Arizona
(9:40 pm)
Oakland at LA Angels
(10:05 pm)
LA Dodgers at San Diego
(10:10 pm)
Washington at Seattle
(10:10 pm)
Milwaukee at San Francisco
(10:15 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact