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Bill James on PEDs

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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby KCollins1304 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:40 pm

Excellent read. ;-D
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby MaudDib » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:52 pm

mweir145 wrote:
The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject. It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives. There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.

Exactly! A memo from the commissioner doesn't constitute a rule. It never did. A rule has to be agreed to by the MLBPA in the CBA.


Interesting article. The first page read like a Arthur C Clark novel. And I agree with it eventually happening and actually surprised that he thinks it will take 40 years for it to happen. I think it will happen much sooner than that.

But I am always amazed to hear people talk about their not being a rule about steroids. There was one, just not specifically in baseball. It is illegal and everyone knew it. I find it amazing to think that baseball has to have a rule for it themselves for us to think it is important in sports. Whether it shoudl be illegal or not is another argument that I won't get into.
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby KCollins1304 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:54 pm

MaudDib wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly and absolutely have a right to participate in the process of changing any and all rules to which they are subject. It was not included in any of the various rule books that define the conduct of the game from various perspectives. There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent in fact.

Exactly! A memo from the commissioner doesn't constitute a rule. It never did. A rule has to be agreed to by the MLBPA in the CBA.


Interesting article. The first page read like a Arthur C Clark novel. And I agree with it eventually happening and actually surprised that he thinks it will take 40 years for it to happen. I think it will happen much sooner than that.

But I am always amazed to hear people talk about their not being a rule about steroids. There was one, just not specifically in baseball. It is illegal and everyone knew it. I find it amazing to think that baseball has to have a rule for it themselves for us to think it is important in sports. Whether it shoudl be illegal or not is another argument that I won't get into.


You're backing yourself into the "why don't we ban players with speeding tickets from the hall of fame" corner with that point. ;-)
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby MaudDib » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:02 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:
MaudDib wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Exactly! A memo from the commissioner doesn't constitute a rule. It never did. A rule has to be agreed to by the MLBPA in the CBA.


Interesting article. The first page read like a Arthur C Clark novel. And I agree with it eventually happening and actually surprised that he thinks it will take 40 years for it to happen. I think it will happen much sooner than that.

But I am always amazed to hear people talk about their not being a rule about steroids. There was one, just not specifically in baseball. It is illegal and everyone knew it. I find it amazing to think that baseball has to have a rule for it themselves for us to think it is important in sports. Whether it shoudl be illegal or not is another argument that I won't get into.


You're backing yourself into the "why don't we ban players with speeding tickets from the hall of fame" corner with that point. ;-)

Only if I agree that players should be banned from the HoF because of steriods, Which I don't. Just don't hide under the "it's wasn't a rule" theory.
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby Big Pimpin » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:05 pm

MaudDib wrote:Only if I agree that players should be banned from the HoF because of steriods, Which I don't. Just don't hide under the "it's wasn't a rule" theory.


Theoretically, there's probably a rule against throwing a ball 90 mph at someone. You could probably be charged with assault with a deadly weapon for it. It's illegal to drive 200 mph and yet NASCAR drivers do it. It's illegal to unsuspectingly hit someone so hard you knock them out, yet DE are trying to do that every time they rush the QB.

I just don't see how you can punish someone for something that isn't in the rule book and prohibited for the sport you're talking about.
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby KCollins1304 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:16 pm

MaudDib wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
MaudDib wrote:
Interesting article. The first page read like a Arthur C Clark novel. And I agree with it eventually happening and actually surprised that he thinks it will take 40 years for it to happen. I think it will happen much sooner than that.

But I am always amazed to hear people talk about their not being a rule about steroids. There was one, just not specifically in baseball. It is illegal and everyone knew it. I find it amazing to think that baseball has to have a rule for it themselves for us to think it is important in sports. Whether it shoudl be illegal or not is another argument that I won't get into.


You're backing yourself into the "why don't we ban players with speeding tickets from the hall of fame" corner with that point. ;-)

Only if I agree that players should be banned from the HoF because of steriods, Which I don't. Just don't hide under the "it's wasn't a rule" theory.


I don't think anyone has ever had a problem with the idea of law enforcement charging players with possession of illegal substances. They definitely broke federal/state laws. They just didn't break any baseball rules in the rule book or collectively bargained.
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby MaudDib » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:32 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
MaudDib wrote:Only if I agree that players should be banned from the HoF because of steriods, Which I don't. Just don't hide under the "it's wasn't a rule" theory.


Theoretically, there's probably a rule against throwing a ball 90 mph at someone. You could probably be charged with assault with a deadly weapon for it. It's illegal to drive 200 mph and yet NASCAR drivers do it. It's illegal to unsuspectingly hit someone so hard you knock them out, yet DE are trying to do that every time they rush the QB.

I just don't see how you can punish someone for something that isn't in the rule book and prohibited for the sport you're talking about.


It's not illegal to drive 200 MPH because is is not a state/national road. You can buy land and build a track on it and then you are free to drive any way you want on that track.

It is illegal to hit someone but no one has taken anyone to court because of it. In hockey it has happened such as the Bertuzzi/Moore case. Same goes for the throwing a ball at someone. If a batter was hit and he could prove that the pitcher meant to hit him then he would have a case. But it is up to the batter to do something.

All I am saying is that don't pretend that just because there wasn't a rule for it, then it is ok. There are better arguments out there for players who used steroids to be admitted into the HoF than the "it wasn't against the rules" argument.
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby Big Pimpin » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:34 pm

MaudDib wrote:There are better arguments out there for players who used steroids to be admitted into the HoF than the "it wasn't against the rules" argument.


I don't disagree, but I still don't think it was against the rules. :-B :-b
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby MaudDib » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:39 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
MaudDib wrote:There are better arguments out there for players who used steroids to be admitted into the HoF than the "it wasn't against the rules" argument.


I don't disagree, but I still don't think it was against the rules. :-B :-b

:-)
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Re: Bill James on PEDs

Postby mweir145 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:45 pm

Yoda wrote:To be fair Mweir, most defenders of Bonds, McGwuire, etc., have made the same points over the last decade.

Very true. But if it takes Bill James to make people take the arguments seriously, I'm fine with that.
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