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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:56 pm

Yoda wrote:
great gretzky wrote:
Yoda wrote:Well we are going around in circles now. If Mazzone is so great then what happened in Baltimore? They had a lot of talented young pitchers at the time: Bedard, DCab, Penn, etc...


Well this kind of goes to my Phil Jackson point. You can't quantify "soft skills" but they are just as important in life as hard ones. Maybe the three Atlanta guys were down to earth and modest/motivated enough to take the advice whereas the other guys didn't share those qualities. People have varying intellects and personalities. So maybe that is why. I think the Mazzone is a god stuff is pretty silly myself. But when taken to a different level, there are some people who are better at getting maximums from the elite as oppossed to everyone else. PJ had as diverse personality types as you are going to find, and he got them all to work.
Think about Larry Brown. Much better at getting the "pretty good" guys to play tot heir max. But with the elite guys, not so much.


I think what you are talking about works in team concept but not in individual achievement especially in pitching. No one coach can mold Jordan into what he was. Similarly, Mazzone might have had some positive effect but he certainly did not mold Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine into what they were. If that were true then I am wondering why haven't seen him have that kind of affect on anyone else since he left the Braves in 2005?


I jsut explained a possiblity. Maybe the people he worked with were more stubbon, dumber, whatever. MY point is a confluence of events. The earlier poster made it like JAckson was just lucky to have those guys, when I would argue he maxmized those guys.

MAzzone however doesn't have the same track record. PHil got the mostof a diverse group of players and starts.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:08 pm

great gretzky wrote:I jsut explained a possiblity. Maybe the people he worked with were more stubbon, dumber, whatever. MY point is a confluence of events. The earlier poster made it like JAckson was just lucky to have those guys, when I would argue he maxmized those guys.

MAzzone however doesn't have the same track record. PHil got the mostof a diverse group of players and starts.


Well Jackson was certainly lucky to have those guys. Would he have won all those championships if he coached the Bucks during those years? He did get the most out of players and he is an outstanding coach for sure but his contribution to the championships were 100% dependent on the players he had on the court.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:19 pm

Yoda wrote:
great gretzky wrote:I jsut explained a possiblity. Maybe the people he worked with were more stubbon, dumber, whatever. MY point is a confluence of events. The earlier poster made it like JAckson was just lucky to have those guys, when I would argue he maxmized those guys.

MAzzone however doesn't have the same track record. PHil got the mostof a diverse group of players and starts.


Well Jackson was certainly lucky to have those guys. Would he have won all those championships if he coached the Bucks during those years? He did get the most out of players and he is an outstanding coach for sure but his contribution to the championships were 100% dependent on the players he had on the court.


So could Rick Pitno or PJ Calisemo win the title with them? Probs not. That's the point. You are focusing on on element. I don't think he had more than maybe 12 percent to do with it. But again, when you are dealing at the highest level, every incremental advantage you accrue is a big deal.
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