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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:02 pm

No you can't. But you can teach how to maxmize talent. Otherwise, what is the point of hitting and pitching coaches. People don't enter the pro levels as a finished products. To discount the effect of coaching is a fool's errands. How many pros were content to be 90 percent of their potential, because that 90 percent was already HOF worthy? But the extra 10 is what would have made them sublime.

And baseball through repetition and drills is one game where you can't teach top tier talent, but you can make some adequate. Or you can really make someone awesome, provided they take your instruction.

edit..

I meant to add that no amount of education is going to make me Einstein. You could also say that someone like Einstein would have been brilliant anywhere he went. But even the most intelligent, talented people still benefit from the best education. Having the best coaches would seem to a similar thing.
Last edited by great gretzky on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:04 pm

This argument is unwinnable on either side.

One group believes that talented athletes will perform at a high level, no matter who is coaching them.

The other side believes that even the most talented of athletes will often acheieve greater results, with a high level of guidence and coaching, than they would have without such coaching.

I count myself in the latter group.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:11 pm

Coaching definitely helps but if the athlete is not willing to listen and improve then no amount of coaching will take you to the next level. Plus, I don't believe in one coach making that difference, rather it is a collection of coaches, managers, and other players who ultimately help you become the player that you are. I also have not heard Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz credit Mazzone as the mentor that you guys all make him out to be.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:24 pm

Maddux apparently agrees with the "pro-coaching" side of the argument.

From Baseball Digest, September 2007:

"[Maddux says] Coaching has been a huge factor in my career, and I've been lucky to have some great coaches. I had Dick Pole, Jim Wright, Jim Colburn, and Rick Kranitz in the minor leagues. And then, on the big league level, I had Pole again as well as Billy Connors, Leo Mazzone, and Larry Rothschild. Now, I have Darren Balsley. So I've been fortunate to have a lot of very good coaches over the years."
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:25 pm

Yoda wrote:Coaching definitely helps but if the athlete is not willing to listen and improve then no amount of coaching will take you to the next level. Plus, I don't believe in one coach making that difference, rather it is a collection of coaches, managers, and other players who ultimately help you become the player that you are. I also have not heard Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz credit Mazzone as the mentor that you guys all make him out to be.


I'm speaking more to the greater point and not Mazzone specifically. Of course no amoung of coaching will take stubborn folk. But again every now and again, said coach does get through.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:29 pm

Here's Smoltz on Mazzone from Baseball Prospectus, June, 2009:

"DL: What impact did Leo Mazzone have on your career?

JS: You know, he just kept me simple. Detroit was kind of retooling my mechanics, and I struggled with that. When I got to Atlanta, they had more pitching coaches available than Detroit did, and Leo is the one who said to me, "Throw a baseball. Okay, that looks good. Now let's work on your pitches." So he just helped me to focus on my pitches, and for that I became a better pitcher because I didn't have to worry about all the mechanical stuff."
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:33 pm

great gretzky wrote:
Yoda wrote:Coaching definitely helps but if the athlete is not willing to listen and improve then no amount of coaching will take you to the next level. Plus, I don't believe in one coach making that difference, rather it is a collection of coaches, managers, and other players who ultimately help you become the player that you are. I also have not heard Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz credit Mazzone as the mentor that you guys all make him out to be.


I'm speaking more to the greater point and not Mazzone specifically. Of course no amoung of coaching will take stubborn folk. But again every now and again, said coach does get through.


Oh I agree. Coaching helps but I don't think it is one guy that can turn a very good pitcher into a HOFer. Also, I can understand if Mazzone was the pitching coach for these guys at lower levels but the Braves pitchers were completely polished and finished products by the time they got to him.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:36 pm

Yoda wrote:the Braves pitchers were completely polished and finished products by the time they got to him.


Holy cow. As a Braves season ticket holder since 1989, I completely disagree with this statement. Maddux was certainly the most polished of the three when he got to Atlanta, but even he had the three best seasons of his career after joining the Braves.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Yoda » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:41 pm

kaiser wrote:
Yoda wrote:the Braves pitchers were completely polished and finished products by the time they got to him.


Holy cow. As a Braves season ticket holder since 1989, I completely disagree with this statement. Maddux was certainly the most polished of the three when he got to Atlanta, but even he had the three best seasons of his career after joining the Braves.


So being a ticket holder for 20 years somehow qualifies you to be an expert on this subject? You can be 100% sure that Mazzone made them into HOFers? What do you base this on?
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby bigh0rt » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:45 pm

kaiser wrote:Here's Smoltz on Mazzone from Baseball Prospectus, June, 2009:

"DL: What impact did Leo Mazzone have on your career?

JS: You know, he just kept me simple. Detroit was kind of retooling my mechanics, and I struggled with that. When I got to Atlanta, they had more pitching coaches available than Detroit did, and Leo is the one who said to me, "Throw a baseball. Okay, that looks good. Now let's work on your pitches." So he just helped me to focus on my pitches, and for that I became a better pitcher because I didn't have to worry about all the mechanical stuff."

Dick Pole might be the best name in Major League Baseball today.
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