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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:49 am

Except other coaches have had Jordan (Doug Collins) and Shaq and haven't won with those players. Say what you will, and hoops is one sport where the coach has the least ability to influence specific games. But I don't think it is a coincidence that he molded three of the all time legends. His guiding hand had something to do with said players becoming what they were.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:55 am

great gretzky wrote:Except other coaches have had Jordan (Doug Collins) and Shaq and haven't won with those players. Say what you will, and hoops is one sport where the coach has the least ability to influence specific games. But I don't think it is a coincidence that he molded three of the all time legends. His guiding hand had something to do with said players becoming what they were.


Thank you. Amen. I think dismissing the accomplishments of Phil Jackson, or, too a lesser extent, Leo Mazzone, is just ludicrous.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:55 am

Mazzone was a great pitching coach but if you really believe in the "Mazzone Effect" then I don't see why 2 years in Baltimore isn't enough time to judge his effect on the pitchers when it didn't take 2 plus years to effect pitchers in Atlanta.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:07 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Mazzone was a great pitching coach but if you really believe in the "Mazzone Effect" then I don't see why 2 years in Baltimore isn't enough time to judge his effect on the pitchers when it didn't take 2 plus years to effect pitchers in Atlanta.


The point is that building a solid pitching staff requires several years of work, building a foundation, through the draft and then through coaching, before they really become a "force." This is how it happened with the Braves. The Braves pitching dominance of the 90's didn't happen overnight, or in a year's time. It took planning and coaching over an extended period of time.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:20 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:Mazzone was a great pitching coach but if you really believe in the "Mazzone Effect" then I don't see why 2 years in Baltimore isn't enough time to judge his effect on the pitchers when it didn't take 2 plus years to effect pitchers in Atlanta.


Its not the time. Talent is the key. Certainly you need time too, but:
A great coach can get talented players to reach their limits to become greats themselves. (see Atlanta)
A mediocre coach cant get them to reach their limits, he can only make them good, cause they are talented.
But even great coaches will fail, if theres not enough talent. (see Baltimore)

And in Atlanta there were not only Maddux-Smoltz-Glavine. There were 'nonames" performing well like Danny Neagle, Steve Avery, Kent Mercker, Kevin Millwood.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:28 pm

Syfo-Dyas wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Mazzone was a great pitching coach but if you really believe in the "Mazzone Effect" then I don't see why 2 years in Baltimore isn't enough time to judge his effect on the pitchers when it didn't take 2 plus years to effect pitchers in Atlanta.


Its not the time. Talent is the key. Certainly you need time too, but:
A great coach can get talented players to reach their limits to become greats themselves. (see Atlanta)
A mediocre coach cant get them to reach their limits, he can only make them good, cause they are talented.
But even great coaches will fail, if theres not enough talent. (see Baltimore)

And in Atlanta there were not only Maddux-Smoltz-Glavine. There were 'nonames" performing well like Danny Neagle, Steve Avery, Kent Mercker, Kevin Millwood.


So you're saying there wasn't one pitcher in Baltimore with the talent of Neagle, Avery, Mercker or Millwood?
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby bazzy_51 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:39 pm

great gretzky wrote:Except other coaches have had Jordan (Doug Collins) and Shaq and haven't won with those players. Say what you will, and hoops is one sport where the coach has the least ability to influence specific games. But I don't think it is a coincidence that he molded three of the all time legends. His guiding hand had something to do with said players becoming what they were.


Ok i know this is a baseball forum and after this i will stick to it, but this is not entirely a true statement... Actually when Shaq was traded to Miami in 2004 for Caron Butler he went on to eventually win a Championship alongside DWade with Riley at the helm in 2006... :-D ;-D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Finals

And just so I can make one more statement, basketball is by no means in the same category as baseball, players turning pro in basketball already have the pedigree of winning and success, they have the talent and moves already, NBA head coaches don't "mold players" by any means its more philosophies they instill...
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby great gretzky » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:51 pm

bazzy_51 wrote:
great gretzky wrote:Except other coaches have had Jordan (Doug Collins) and Shaq and haven't won with those players. Say what you will, and hoops is one sport where the coach has the least ability to influence specific games. But I don't think it is a coincidence that he molded three of the all time legends. His guiding hand had something to do with said players becoming what they were.


Ok i know this is a baseball forum and after this i will stick to it, but this is not entirely a true statement... Actually when Shaq was traded to Miami in 2004 for Caron Butler he went on to eventually win a Championship alongside DWade with Riley at the helm in 2006... :-D ;-D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Finals

And just so I can make one more statement, basketball is by no means in the same category as baseball, players turning pro in basketball already have the pedigree of winning and success, they have the talent and moves already, NBA head coaches don't "mold players" by any means its more philosophies they instill...


True, I forgot about that championship. Mentally I was thinking of the players as the focal point of things. Meaning Shaq had to go to LA to win, even though those Orlando teams were very strong.

And I mean people never seem to make that case against Riley, even though he was as much if not luckier than other coaches. Magic wanted the previous coach fired, Riley steps in, and he gets Kareem, Magic Johnson, Worthy, McAdoo etc. etc. He could never get over the hump with the Knicks, then gets his "touch" back when he gets Wade and then Shaq.

Hoops isn't a good case because if you have crappy players, you can't really make a system for them to perform, no matter how clever. The good coaches will always have had good players. But the coaches have a more human to human job than the others. More about cajoling, jelling, etc. You can't be a ballhog in baseball, hockey, football really, as its patently obvious in football that you are being a jerk (demanding the ball), it just doesn't work in hockey, and its impossible to be a ball hog in baseball. Hoops on the other hand...

Even playing organized and pickup hoops in life, Hoops seems to be one game more so than the others where people of all talent levels seem to overestimate their own skill. I imagine the prolevel would be insufferable. This is where I think the difference between a Phil Jackson comes into play, and why he is great.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby kaiser » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:56 pm

Perfect.
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Re: I think it's amazing that Leo Mazzone...

Postby Yoda » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:16 pm

Pitching and batting coaches take too much credit and blame. Mazzone or not, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz would have dominated regardless. Look at some of the other dominant pitchers in our era: Clemens, Pedro, RJ, etc all succeeded everywhere they pitched.
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