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Penny trade = Buchholz time?

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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby Millhouse » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:43 pm

nsulham wrote:
Millhouse wrote:i wouldn't be shocked if dice-k was sent back down to extended spring training or something to get his act back together. he didn't really have a spring training and it's showing. if so, buchholz could come up...but there's also smoltz.


He didn't have a spring training because he was busy being overworked by Team Japan. If anything that's why he hasn't looked right and why he missed time earlier this season.


yeah. that's what i was referring to, the WBC. thought that was implied.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby nsulham » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:45 pm

Millhouse wrote:
nsulham wrote:
Millhouse wrote:i wouldn't be shocked if dice-k was sent back down to extended spring training or something to get his act back together. he didn't really have a spring training and it's showing. if so, buchholz could come up...but there's also smoltz.


He didn't have a spring training because he was busy being overworked by Team Japan. If anything that's why he hasn't looked right and why he missed time earlier this season.


yeah. that's what i was referring to, the WBC. thought that was implied.


I might have just read it wrong. No worries.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby bigken117 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:04 pm

nsulham wrote:He didn't have a spring training because he was busy being overworked by Team Japan. If anything that's why he hasn't looked right and why he missed time earlier this season.



What was his excuse for not looking right last season?

Penny is looking sharp tonight, his value is go up ever so slightly :-)
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby B-Chad » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 pm

I'm not a Buchholz owner, nor am I a Red Sox fan, so take my view as an unbiased spectator... but I think it's about time to consider doing something with Dice-K. I think his problems go beyond the WBC and not pitching in ST and are rooted in his nibbling and avoiding hitters. When he's not nibbling and walking the world, he is throwing fat strikes that get batted around, which makes me wonder, why exactly is his job so secure? Sure he is getting a huge contract, but in all honesty, it's not like the Red Sox need to feel compelled to start him to justify it, it's not like they didn't pull the plug on Lugo last year when he was ineffective even with his bad contract. I guess I'm shocked they don't give Buchholz an extended look to determine if he'll help them go on a championship run this year, because ultimately, isn't the goal to put out your best players when you have a championship caliber team that's in a big market? Any insight would be GREATLY appreciated as I guess I don't get what I'm missing.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby Havok1517 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:57 pm

I honestly think the Red Sox is a team that would benefit from a 6 man rotation(just confirmed by Olney on Baseball Tonight as I type this) including Buchholtz and let Smoltz pitch in relief as his arm and endurance is far from proven at this point in his career. Also, to answer your question Michael Bowden might be a better pitcher in the minors than Buchholtz. This would also allow him to build up to the playoffs. Still, the Red Sox will have some exciting September call-ups in Hagadone, Tazawa, Bowden, and Fernando Cabrera.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby B-Chad » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:42 pm

Havok1517 wrote:I honestly think the Red Sox is a team that would benefit from a 6 man rotation(just confirmed by Olney on Baseball Tonight as I type this) including Buchholtz and let Smoltz pitch in relief as his arm and endurance is far from proven at this point in his career. Also, to answer your question Michael Bowden might be a better pitcher in the minors than Buchholtz. This would also allow him to build up to the playoffs. Still, the Red Sox will have some exciting September call-ups in Hagadone, Tazawa, Bowden, and Fernando Cabrera.


I was with you until you included Fernando Cabrera amongst the exciting September call-ups :-P Sure his numbers in AAA have been good, but he's been such a bad pitcher at the big league level in the past and he's certainly not a young pup either.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby bigken117 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:58 pm

Hagadone is 1 yr removed from Tommy John with all of 36 innings under his belt in the minors. An exciting call-up in 2011 maybe...
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby jzfran » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:16 pm

I hope we could package Penny + Lugo + money for all of Lugo's contract for a slight upgrade at SS defensively, though I doubt many AAA teams would go for Lugo. So realistically, I bet Penny is packaged with a reliever, probably Delcarmen, in exchange for a better SS, or even just another bat. If Lugo could be added (with the Sox posting almost all the $$) to the deal, then great, since we cant keep 3 SS and Green has been good. I just want to package Penny with any player, maybe Kotsay (?) and get an improvement for Kotsay. Also, dont count us out of the MCab race.

I also agree with the trading Dice-K idea. A very frustrating guy to watch, he is a very good pitcher, with a lot of value, but a pretty good sized contract I believe. A rotation with Beckett, Lester, Wake, Penny and Smoltz is probably the best in the majors, and if anything happens to one of them Buchholz is sitting there.

Anyways, to answer your question, I'm sure depending on the standings that Clay will get at least a few starts, possibly a lot, with an injury to any of the five.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby NWSoxaholic » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:52 pm

I think Buchholz is only seen this year if there is an injury or Smoltz doesn't deliver.

Penny will get traded so he's out of the equation, Wakefield won't go to the pen unless it's an emergency (and they really don't need another arm in there with how well they are doing), and there is no way the Red Sox could/would trade Matsuzaka. He's an investment in the Japanese market that has brought them a new market and probably helped them land a few of their other Japanese pitchers, and who would want a fat pitching contract for a guy who can't make it out of the 5th inning on 100 pitches? I really think the Sox came into this year after making their low risk/high reward signings of Penny/Smoltz thinking between them and Wake one of them wouldn't pan out/get hurt. So far everything has worked out and the Red Sox have learned in the past that there's no such thing as "too much good pitching" (see 2006 and sending off Arroyo). The Sox are in a good position and if Buchholz keeps dominating (as he's done the last few times in Pawtucket) then they just have an ace up their sleeve to promote if things go downhill. For now there's no reason to rush it.
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Re: Penny trade = Buchholz time?

Postby RocketsDWM » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:42 pm

NWSoxaholic wrote:I think Buchholz is only seen this year if there is an injury or Smoltz doesn't deliver.

Penny will get traded so he's out of the equation, Wakefield won't go to the pen unless it's an emergency (and they really don't need another arm in there with how well they are doing), and there is no way the Red Sox could/would trade Matsuzaka. He's an investment in the Japanese market that has brought them a new market and probably helped them land a few of their other Japanese pitchers, and who would want a fat pitching contract for a guy who can't make it out of the 5th inning on 100 pitches? I really think the Sox came into this year after making their low risk/high reward signings of Penny/Smoltz thinking between them and Wake one of them wouldn't pan out/get hurt. So far everything has worked out and the Red Sox have learned in the past that there's no such thing as "too much good pitching" (see 2006 and sending off Arroyo). The Sox are in a good position and if Buchholz keeps dominating (as he's done the last few times in Pawtucket) then they just have an ace up their sleeve to promote if things go downhill. For now there's no reason to rush it.


The bold part is absolutely correct and well-stated. The italic part is a bit off IMO. Once you subtract the posting fee, Dice is receiving (without looking it up) about 7 mil a season (it goes up slightly each year). That is fairly affordable for a pitcher who garnered 18 wins last season (albeit on a very good team). And that team would be able to dip into the Japanese market and gain sponsorship opportunities and the chance to broaden their fan base. I think a lot of organizations would jump at that chance.

Dice is the crux of this pitching dilemma. He cannot be sent down to the minors without his consent. He has a no trade clause (although they would never entertain trading him). Might another DL stint be the solution? Then slide Smoltz into his rotation spot and try to find a trade partner for Penny. Once Penny is jettisoned, you promote Clay and perhaps a 6 man rotation is the way to go. That way Dice and Smoltz could rest up and ease back into their starting gigs.
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