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super 2

Postby yanks924 » Tue May 19, 2009 2:10 pm

it says..."The top 17 percent of players with at least 2 but less than 3 years of Major League service. These are known as “Super 2” players. To qualify as a Super 2, a player must have accumulated at least 86 days of service in the previous year. Historically, the cutoff point for Super 2 status is 2 years, 128 days of service, though the requirement has been as high as 2 years, 140 days in years past."

the top 17 percent? who decides who is in the top 17 percent? and how do they decide that stats? baseball america rankings? Sorry if i sound retarded or bringing up a subject that is always asked about but im just trying to understand becuase i have david price and tommy hanson
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Re: super 2

Postby Steve-o » Tue May 19, 2009 11:23 pm

It is my understanding that by top 17% they mean MLB service time.

Let's use an example. 100 players are called up during the year. The first one is called up May 15, the next one on May 16, etc, until number 100 is called up on August 22. All these players remain in the big leagues for the rest of that year (year 1), all of the next year (year 2), and all of the year after that (year 3). All of these players now have less than 3 years of MLB experience since they did not play a complete year in year 1, so they normally would not be eligible for arbitration. However, they can qualify as super twos if they are in the top 17% of MLB service time among the group of players that have more than 2 years, but less than 3 years of MLB experience. In this example, assuming no other players are called up, it would be the first 17 players that were called up (those guys from May 15 until May 31).

You can see how this number can be a moving target.
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Re: super 2

Postby yanks924 » Wed May 20, 2009 2:40 am

makes a lot more sense when its put like that, thank you for your help!
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Re: super 2

Postby fbc_fan » Wed May 20, 2009 4:27 pm

Steve-o wrote:It is my understanding that by top 17% they mean MLB service time.

Let's use an example. 100 players are called up during the year. The first one is called up May 15, the next one on May 16, etc, until number 100 is called up on August 22. All these players remain in the big leagues for the rest of that year (year 1), all of the next year (year 2), and all of the year after that (year 3). All of these players now have less than 3 years of MLB experience since they did not play a complete year in year 1, so they normally would not be eligible for arbitration. However, they can qualify as super twos if they are in the top 17% of MLB service time among the group of players that have more than 2 years, but less than 3 years of MLB experience. In this example, assuming no other players are called up, it would be the first 17 players that were called up (those guys from May 15 until May 31).

You can see how this number can be a moving target.


thanks dude. you've been quite helpful with this rule on more than 1 occasion.

am i also right in my assumption that since price pitched some in september last year (regular season, i'm pretty sure playoffs don't count) that those days of service time are tacked on to this years if he is called up. effectively this would move his callup back by however much he pitched last year.
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Re: super 2

Postby Steve-o » Wed May 20, 2009 6:46 pm

fbc_fan wrote:am i also right in my assumption that since price pitched some in september last year (regular season, i'm pretty sure playoffs don't count) that those days of service time are tacked on to this years if he is called up. effectively this would move his callup back by however much he pitched last year.


That's my understanding of it, including the playoff part. Here's the CBA if you are interested in the actual language.

MLB CBA Article XXI (A) wrote:(1) One full day of Major League service will be credited for each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League Club’s Active List. A total of 172 days of Major League credited service will constitute one full year of credited service. A Player may not be credited with more than one year of credited service, 172 days, in one championship season. Major League service will be computed commencing with the date of the first regularly scheduled championship season game, through and including the date of the last regularly scheduled championship season game. This rule shall apply uniformly to all Players and all Clubs notwithstanding differences in a particular Club’s schedule.
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Re: super 2

Postby fbc_fan » Thu May 21, 2009 4:41 pm

thanks, thats very interesting. perhaps we wont' see david price for even longer.
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Re: super 2

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Sat May 23, 2009 8:14 am

Steve-o wrote:
fbc_fan wrote:am i also right in my assumption that since price pitched some in september last year (regular season, i'm pretty sure playoffs don't count) that those days of service time are tacked on to this years if he is called up. effectively this would move his callup back by however much he pitched last year.


That's my understanding of it, including the playoff part. Here's the CBA if you are interested in the actual language.

MLB CBA Article XXI (A) wrote:(1) One full day of Major League service will be credited for each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League Club’s Active List. A total of 172 days of Major League credited service will constitute one full year of credited service. A Player may not be credited with more than one year of credited service, 172 days, in one championship season. Major League service will be computed commencing with the date of the first regularly scheduled championship season game, through and including the date of the last regularly scheduled championship season game. This rule shall apply uniformly to all Players and all Clubs notwithstanding differences in a particular Club’s schedule.


I read that to say that playoff games will not count, as they are not "Regularly scheduled" games.
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Re: super 2

Postby FouLLine » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:38 pm

yanks924 wrote:it says..."The top 17 percent of players with at least 2 but less than 3 years of Major League service. These are known as “Super 2” players. To qualify as a Super 2, a player must have accumulated at least 86 days of service in the previous year. Historically, the cutoff point for Super 2 status is 2 years, 128 days of service, though the requirement has been as high as 2 years, 140 days in years past."

the top 17 percent? who decides who is in the top 17 percent? and how do they decide that stats? baseball america rankings? Sorry if i sound retarded or bringing up a subject that is always asked about but im just trying to understand becuase i have david price and tommy hanson


Ahh, Super Twos. This stuff gets confusing but can be fun. I'll try my best to explain it from the best of my understanding.

From my past understanding of Super 2's you wouldn't have to worry about Tommy Hanson just yet cause he hasn't even played in the majors yet. You need to serve "Two" consecutive seasons in the Majors to qualify as a "Super Two".

The whole reason there are Super Twos are to allow top prospects who only have had 2 years served in the majors arbitration. So they can get paid the money they deserve for there skill sets.

A Super Two is someone who is eligible for arbitration before there 3rd year of service. Usually a player would be eligible for arbitration after they have had 3 years of service (in the majors) but less than six years of service. I believe all players sign 6 year contracts out of the draft, or a team owns the rights to that player for the next 6 years? (don't quote me on this) So that player would just become a free agent rather than get arbitration.

Also I think that the the 17% is being referred to all the players who were called up over the past 3 seasons that have acquired 2 years served but have yet to acquire 3 years served in the majors. They would have had to also have accumulated at least 86 days of service in there second year of service time (which would have to be the most recent season) to qualify as a Super Two.

Example: Say David Price is in the top 17% but he doesn't acquire 86 days of service this season he would NOT be eligible for Super Two arbitration in the off season. He would have to wait one more year like everyone else. But say David Price is in the top 17% (which he should be, I'm pretty sure post season days count if your team is in it? DL time I believe also counts.) and does get 86 days served this year he will be eligible for Super Two arbitration this off season.

Just a general example. A player can become a Super Two if they get called up in say 2005 then stay in the minors all of 2006 but then they get 86 days served in the majors in 2007 so long as they are in the top 17% of days served over that span.

So basically anyone with 3 years served in the majors gets arbitration. But if you have a guy who only has 2 years served but is in the top 17 percent of days served and had 86 days served last year he would be eligible for arbitration in the offseason.

The whole concept of the "Super Two" is to prevent teams from exploiting prospects. It prevents teams from keeping prospects in the minors for longer than they should be just to later get an extra year out of them, before they are forced to go to arbitration. The MLBPA collective bargaining (basically the baseball player's union) is very good at protecting there players from being exploited. The Rule 5 draft was implemented for similar reasons. All players that are capable of playing should get the opportunity to play at the major league level, they shouldn't sit in some team's stacked farm system.
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Re: super 2

Postby Bobbleheadrusty » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:31 pm

FouLLine wrote:
yanks924 wrote:it says..."The top 17 percent of players with at least 2 but less than 3 years of Major League service. These are known as “Super 2” players. To qualify as a Super 2, a player must have accumulated at least 86 days of service in the previous year. Historically, the cutoff point for Super 2 status is 2 years, 128 days of service, though the requirement has been as high as 2 years, 140 days in years past."

the top 17 percent? who decides who is in the top 17 percent? and how do they decide that stats? baseball america rankings? Sorry if i sound retarded or bringing up a subject that is always asked about but im just trying to understand becuase i have david price and tommy hanson


Ahh, Super Twos. This stuff gets confusing but can be fun. I'll try my best to explain it from the best of my understanding.

From my past understanding of Super 2's you wouldn't have to worry about Tommy Hanson just yet cause he hasn't even played in the majors yet. You need to serve "Two" consecutive seasons in the Majors to qualify as a "Super Two".

The whole reason there are Super Twos are to allow top prospects who only have had 2 years served in the majors arbitration. So they can get paid the money they deserve for there skill sets.

A Super Two is someone who is eligible for arbitration before there 3rd year of service. Usually a player would be eligible for arbitration after they have had 3 years of service (in the majors) but less than six years of service. I believe all players sign 6 year contracts out of the draft, or a team owns the rights to that player for the next 6 years? (don't quote me on this) So that player would just become a free agent rather than get arbitration.

Also I think that the the 17% is being referred to all the players who were called up over the past 3 seasons that have acquired 2 years served but have yet to acquire 3 years served in the majors. They would have had to also have accumulated at least 86 days of service in there second year of service time (which would have to be the most recent season) to qualify as a Super Two.

Example: Say David Price is in the top 17% but he doesn't acquire 86 days of service this season he would NOT be eligible for Super Two arbitration in the off season. He would have to wait one more year like everyone else. But say David Price is in the top 17% (which he should be, I'm pretty sure post season days count if your team is in it? DL time I believe also counts.) and does get 86 days served this year he will be eligible for Super Two arbitration this off season.

Just a general example. A player can become a Super Two if they get called up in say 2005 then stay in the minors all of 2006 but then they get 86 days served in the majors in 2007 so long as they are in the top 17% of days served over that span.

So basically anyone with 3 years served in the majors gets arbitration. But if you have a guy who only has 2 years served but is in the top 17 percent of days served and had 86 days served last year he would be eligible for arbitration in the offseason.

The whole concept of the "Super Two" is to prevent teams from exploiting prospects. It prevents teams from keeping prospects in the minors for longer than they should be just to later get an extra year out of them, before they are forced to go to arbitration. The MLBPA collective bargaining (basically the baseball player's union) is very good at protecting there players from being exploited. The Rule 5 draft was implemented for similar reasons. All players that are capable of playing should get the opportunity to play at the major league level, they shouldn't sit in some team's stacked farm system.


You've got about half of that wrong. Super 2 definitely is not something to protect prospects. And most of your timelines wrong.

See the above posts for correct answers.
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Re: super 2

Postby FouLLine » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:38 pm

Bobbleheadrusty wrote:
You've got about half of that wrong. Super 2 definitely is not something to protect prospects. And most of your timelines wrong.

See the above posts for correct answers.


I ended up looking it up. Davis Price may not qualify as a Super 2 as he needs 172 days served to earn a full year of service. Other than that all I got wrong was the fact that players don't have to sign for 6 years out of the draft. Most end up doing so though. Or they at least sign with up to 6 years after club options.

Super Twos wasn't implemented to protect prospects it was implemented to insure young players get paid what they are worth. If you are a super two you are slightly beyond a prospect at that point in your career.
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