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Veto power debate...

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Postby wkelly91 » Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:32 pm

Clevelander wrote:PLEASEEEEEEE....

you must do sales for a living....no need to sell the smart in here though...nice lowjab on the you must be god theory....

if you were in those other shoes there is no way you would give me beltran let alone add abreu and giambi....i dare you to tell me you would so quit using the collusion and 'it fits our needs BS....

by giving up abreu and beltran in the outfield, what 2 other outfielders does he possibly have to come close to those numbers just by improving your precious 2B by a little and getting thome...? as compared to giambi, and your selling him as a risk factor...WHAT...

this whole thing just cracks me up as you actually think this is fair...i guess the final thing i can say is to have fun in YOUR league as it looks like you have the BEST team...thats what you wanted and youve done it...FUN LEAGUE, i bet no money is involved....


Maybe you should re-read the posts as you also are mis informed.

1) The trade didn't go through
2) How do you know about my team, I have never listed it.
3) Of coarse I wouldn't make the trade if I was on the other side. I AM trying to trade away players for players I percieve as better....Isn't that the point of trading. :-?
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Postby wkelly91 » Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:44 pm

CBM:

You think you can throw out a small one line disclaimer before a LONG post ripping people calling them idiots and that's OK?

Your points as I said are well spoken but I re-emphasize that you don't know all the facts.

You are basically right about the draft positions but I will re-state:

HE WAS HAPPY WITH IT!

In fact he told me last week that he was still pissed that it didn't go through because HE thought he was getting the better of me!

Are you also saying that no trade should ever be approved uless they were drafted in the same round? Value is relative to the owners involved and IF THEY ARE HAPPY why should you care?

Your continued arrogance and self-importance concerning insulting my friend not knowing all the facts is beyond comprehension. :-X
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:45 pm

I gave you my point of view, if you can't see it's merits you are blind. If he wanted your players instead of his, he should have drafted them. They were all on the board when he made his picks. This is bad fantasy management, and in my opinion, bad judgment. As I am of this opinion, I reserve the right to veto freely. Who are you to say I don't have the right to excercise this league function?

As for insulting your friend... gee I'm real sorry, I call him an idiot because it's a more efficient way to rationalize his behavior than writing another thesis about how his management is flawed.

Your continued arrogance and self-importance concerning insulting my friend not knowing all the facts is beyond comprehension.


It appears that most everything I've said is beyond your comprehension.

With that you have lost all credibility with me. I have made my points and you have attempted to make yours. If you care to reread them so you can understand them more clearly, and then respond in a meaningful and intelligible manner, be my guest. If not, then I am finished with this debate as far as you're concerned. As you have made no effort to address what I have said point for point, deciding instead to present your ideas as fact, I expect the latter.

Good day sir.
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Postby wkelly91 » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:38 pm

"It appears that most everything I've said is beyond your comprehension."

These are the kind of statements that make YOU lose credibility. I have in fact answered both you insults and your points, both of which you continue to ignore. And yet you do the same thing you accuse me of...answering MY points.

I stated that you had good arguments....yet I felt they were flawed.(opinion). You are right when you say he could have drafted the players as they were available. Where you are yet uninformed once again is that he was out of town and was on auto-draft. When he came back he wanted to make changes . Could he have set his auto-draft better..maybe, but when your ranking over 600 players you can make mistakes and you can't predict how the draft will pan out.

We are looking at this from two opposites sides and there is no meeting in the middle.

I feel like there is no reason to veto other than collusion.

You feel that it's your "right" as well as "duty" to keep people from making stupid trades based on your vast intellectual acumen.

I feel like I don't have the ability to predict with 100% accuracy what every player will do in the future including production, trades, injuries etc. You obviously feel that you can.

I for one will not play "God" for all the other owners. If they want to be stupid or shrewd, so be it.
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Postby Arlo » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:06 pm

Come on folks, no need to get personal.

CBMGreatOne wrote:This does NOT happen in real sports, and I'd challenge you to point out to me a circumstance where it does and prove me wrong, but don't bother trying because it doesn't.

Antawn Jamison for Vince Carter. (Ok, ok, bad example... :-D )
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:31 pm

Ok, I'm going to repost what I posted in the separate thread afther this one was locked, but I've toned it down a little because the mods want us to play nice.

First off, you are the one who started off with the insults, which really aren't minded. I like a hearty debate and sometimes strong points of view lead to such things.


I feel like I don't have the ability to predict with 100% accuracy what every player will do in the future including production, trades, injuries etc. You obviously feel that you can.

I for one will not play "God" for all the other owners. If they want to be stupid or shrewd, so be it.



Here's where your argument takes a turn for the questionable. I don't have to be able to predict with 100% accuracy what players production will be to feel justified in vetoing a trade. Apparently you do. That is the difference, and it's a philosophical difference. Trying to pass it off as gospel will get you nowhere with me.

I can't be "100% sure" that ARod will even outperform Aramis Ramirez this year considering all factors (in this case particularly injury), but I sure as heck am casting my vote to veto when this trade sits pending.

So you can try to play "God" with the fantasy community by deluding yourself into the belief that your opinion is fundamentally better than mine.

It strikes me as hypocritical.

When you opened this thread, you asked for other people's opinions, but you clearly only wanted to hear those that corresponded with your own.

I apologize for calling your friend an idiot. What I should have said is that he has made several poor decisions.

Again, this is my opinion, and having an equal vote in the veto process to people who hold your opinion, I reserve the right to excercise that option when I feel that an owner is exercising particularly bad judgment.
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Postby wkelly91 » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:58 pm

CBMGreatOne wrote: I would veto that trade, and it wouldn't be because I was jealous, but because manager B is an idiot and a liability to the competitive legitimacy of the league. I understand that if it's a points league, the scoring might be weird, and it might have been more fair than it appears, but speaking from a roto standpoint, that trade is insane. VETO!!!!!!!


I don't want to keep dwelling on this but...you keep making innacurate statements. I wasn't the one who started the inflamitory statements, you were.

There were 5-6 posts agreeing with my side of this debate when you wrote that you hated to stick your nose in but....and then wrote the above quote about my friend.

I accept your 2nd apology.

As I stated we are looking at this from opposite sides and there is no middle. We must agree to disagree. ;-)
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Postby CBMGreatOne » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:14 pm

I would veto that trade, and it wouldn't be because I was jealous, but because manager B is an idiot and a liability to the competitive legitimacy of the league. I understand that if it's a points league, the scoring might be weird, and it might have been more fair than it appears, but speaking from a roto standpoint, that trade is insane. VETO!!!!!!!


This is not an inflammatory statement, at least it isn't one directed at you, so, here.

I wasn't the one who started with the inflammatory statements directed at someone who was posting.

So you had 5 people that agree with you before I got involved. Last I checked my arguments had support too, and from more than just those who choose to post on this forum, but undoubtedly several of the people in your league as well.

We can agree to disagree, but I said nothing inaccurate.
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Postby eli81k » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:28 pm

If it is a yearly re-draft league, and there is no foul play, trades probably shouldn't be vetoed. Ripping people off should carry with it the reputation of being a bastard, and if the same owners are involved in coming years, hopefully bastard owners will get frozen out like Isah Thomas and the other veterans did to Jordan in that one All-Star game.

If it is a keeper league, you defninately need to factor in competative ballance because you can tank a teams chances for years to come. The owner with no chance of winning may bail on the league, and then you have to find someone that actually wants to take on a perenial last place club--despite what some people say about liking a challenge, its hard to find someone willing to wait a couple years, especially with so many leagues available to fantasy baseballers now.
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VETO

Postby vtbos » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:51 pm

WHAT IF TWO OWNERS DECIDE THEY WANT TO INTENTIONALLY MAKE STUPID TRADES TO MAKE ONE REALLY GOOD TEAM, THEN WHAT HAPPENS. THERE SHOULD BE A RULE SAYING THAT PEOPLE CAN ONLY VETO THE TRADE IF THE RATING OF THE PLAYERS BEING TRADED IS LIKE 50 DIFFERENT
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