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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby Grounded Polo » Tue May 19, 2009 1:28 pm

thedude wrote:
jfg wrote:If they were in the West they would have been swept the first round. I love the East style of basketball because it's a lot of fun to watch but it just doesn't equate to wins (unless you acquire a dream team I guess). I really hope the Cavs win it all though.



East was actually better than the West this year. Three of the four best teams were in the East.

And By East style basketball do mean defense? Because it has been proven time and time again that defense wins rings. The best defensive teams are in the East.


Yep, the West playoff teams after LA had better records overall than the East after the main 3 but the West had like 6 awful teams that won less than 25 games, the East just had Washigton. East teams always did much better in the West than vice versa, even with the elite Western conference ones, not just the bottom feeders. The East was definitely more competitive.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby knapplc » Tue May 19, 2009 1:30 pm

I'm not familiar with PER, but does it take into account the strength of the competition LeBron is facing compared to Jordan's and Wilt's? Detroit and Atlanta circa 2009 aren't exactly the cream of the NBA crop, after all.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby jfg » Tue May 19, 2009 1:51 pm

Detroit wasn't an East style team, they were like the East's version of the Suns. It just seems like the East plays a faster paced game that's really fun to watch but teams who pound the ball inside seem to always dominate. I don't know, maybe I'm basing that off a limited number of teams, I don't have any stats to back it up and I'm probably wrong.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby silentjim » Tue May 19, 2009 1:52 pm

knapplc wrote:I'm not familiar with PER, but does it take into account the strength of the competition LeBron is facing compared to Jordan's and Wilt's? Detroit and Atlanta circa 2009 aren't exactly the cream of the NBA crop, after all.


Simple answer, no. Long answer is that PER is based on individual performance not team stats or opposing teams stats and attributes. Too much of this is subjective and you'll hear the argument about how RBI's shouldn't be used in fantasy baseball, because its dependent on runners being on base (someone else's stats). PER was basketball's shot at sabermetrics. I will admit it is flawed just like most other things.

That being said, I misquoted a bit. Hakeem had the second highest playoff PER in the playoffs and his team lost in the first round in 4 games. Wilt and Jordan are the only two players to have better PERs in a regular season than Lebron's 2008-2009 season.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby silentjim » Tue May 19, 2009 1:59 pm

jfg wrote:Detroit wasn't an East style team, they were like the East's version of the Suns. It just seems like the East plays a faster paced game that's really fun to watch but teams who pound the ball inside seem to always dominate. I don't know, maybe I'm basing that off a limited number of teams, I don't have any stats to back it up and I'm probably wrong.


You are. :-D Horribly. :-D

Detroit was tough since they obviously changed gears through the season, but they had the worst pace (possessions per game) in the NBA. Dead last at 89.1. Golden State was first at 101. Only 3 of the top 10 teams in Pace were from the Eastern Conference; New York (2), Indiana (3), and Chicago (9).
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby knapplc » Tue May 19, 2009 2:04 pm

LeBron is certainly an extremely gifted player who invites comparisons between the game's all-time greats. I don't know if there would be a way to crunch numbers to adequately compare guys from different eras, and different positions (LeBron being a F, Jordan a G and Wilt a C). Maybe someday they'll figure something like that out. It's just a pleasure to watch them, I guess.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby silentjim » Tue May 19, 2009 2:07 pm

knapplc wrote:LeBron is certainly an extremely gifted player who invites comparisons between the game's all-time greats. I don't know if there would be a way to crunch numbers to adequately compare guys from different eras, and different positions (LeBron being a F, Jordan a G and Wilt a C). Maybe someday they'll figure something like that out. It's just a pleasure to watch them, I guess.


Exactly. We've had many discussions on the basketball side about the introduction of the three point line, zone defenses, hand-checking, etc. Add on to that some stats weren't kept for the longest time (blocks in particular).

PER, is obviously more fantasy basketball based, which is fine by me at this point. I'm not sure we can ever truly compare the eras since so much of it is about interpretation and perspective as opposed to real facts.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby jfg » Tue May 19, 2009 3:51 pm

silentjim wrote:
jfg wrote:Detroit wasn't an East style team, they were like the East's version of the Suns. It just seems like the East plays a faster paced game that's really fun to watch but teams who pound the ball inside seem to always dominate. I don't know, maybe I'm basing that off a limited number of teams, I don't have any stats to back it up and I'm probably wrong.


You are. :-D Horribly. :-D

Detroit was tough since they obviously changed gears through the season, but they had the worst pace (possessions per game) in the NBA. Dead last at 89.1. Golden State was first at 101. Only 3 of the top 10 teams in Pace were from the Eastern Conference; New York (2), Indiana (3), and Chicago (9).


That's what I meant about Detroit, they played a slow game in the East. I was comparing them to the Suns because they played a fast game in the West. But, that doesn't matter I guess since the stats show the West was a faster league! Maybe then they need to develop a complex stat that shows which teams are the most boring. Spurs take the top 5 places...
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby Neato Torpedo » Tue May 19, 2009 4:19 pm

The Suns have averaged like 104 PA/G since 2004 or so and the Pistons have averaged like 92. The Pistons have been very defensive-minded since the 1980s while the Suns have been notorious for having a bunch of scorers that are crap defenders. I don't see the comparison at all.
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Re: Celtics-Bulls

Postby jfg » Tue May 19, 2009 5:00 pm

%-6

1. Assume that I was right that the East played fast paced and West slow paced.
2. The Suns played fast paced basketball in the West.
3. The Pistons played slow paced basketball in the East.
4. Thus both teams played the opposite version of my view of both leagues.

Got it?
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