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Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby MrSnider » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:42 pm

Here's my H2H league's set-up...this is what we can start everyday:

C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, UTIL
SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP, RP, RP

BN, BN, BN, BN, BN
Only other roster settings: SP max = 6.

We're H2H. The commish and another owner are forcing an owner to drop two players because he did not fill the last 2 RP spots. Instead, he had 5 hitters on the BN and 2 SP on the BN (+4 SP in his rotation = 6 SP limit per rules). The commish is making him drop 2 players to add 2 relief pitchers arguing that the "rules" state 5 BN players and he has 7 on the bench (5 hitters + 2 SP), such that if he wants to carry the extra 2 SPs (as permitted), he must drop 2 hitters and only have 3 hitters on the BN.

I'd like to get your take on this. I view it as simple owner's prerogative to engage the best strategy for his team. The commish has indicated he will drop 2 players from the team if he doesn't comply. I'd also say that to me "bench" is for extra hitters, not for starting pitchers not starting. It doesn't seem to make sense that you have to drop hitters to pick up extra SPs; that you can't drop RPs instead.

There was no pre-season rule that you had to fill every spot.

I appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:20 pm

I agree with your commish. If you have 5 bench spots, you have 5 bench spots. All the other details (# RP, max SP, whatever, whatever) are irrelevant.

If the guy wants to drop 2 players and not pick up extra RPs as is his right, that's his decision. Because this is not about "filling" spots; it's about "exceeding" them.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Dan Lambskin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:43 pm

i've seen leagues play it both ways...where you either have to field a full lineup, or you can choose not to field a full lineup

personally i think you should have the option to not field a full lineup, and in this case carry the extra hitters, however, i would defer to the commish and his ruling in this case since the rules as written are rather ambiguous
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:05 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:i've seen leagues play it both ways...where you either have to field a full lineup, or you can choose not to field a full lineup

Really? Because I don't even see this as an issue of fielding a full lineup or not. It doesn't seem like this is a case of what you do with your lineup; it's a case of exceeding your bench spots.

If the guy wanted to bench Starters instead of playing them or play inactive Starters instead of playing active ones doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue is the league has 5 bench spots; the guy is using 7 of them. If he dropped 2 hitters, didn't pick up anyone, and didn't fill his RP spots, that would be his decision IMO. But it's not his decision to have 7 or 9 or 11 or any number over 5 players on his bench.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby MrSnider » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:18 pm

The issue I have, as the only experienced player, with the commish's ruling, and the reason I've brought it here, is two-fold:

1. The rules being ambiguous, I don't like the commish making up rules as he goes along. When I have commished a league, it has always been ambiguities are resolved in the favor of the owner, and I think he's being very heavy-handed in this case. He's a rookie commish who is insisting he gets his way (badgering other owners into agreeing with him) and threatening to dump the players and kick the owner out of the league if he doesn't comply.

2. Bench player to me means a position player. If I say to you, "Who do the Yanks have one their bench?" you aren't going to name the SPs that aren't starting. Very clearly when you're designing the league and putting in bench spots, you're thinking about how many extra hitters you want to be able to carry.

I'd agree with Mathias if the owner was carrying 7 hitters, but that's not the case here. The case here is simply dropping RPs to carry additional SPs, and I see no disconnect in being able to do that. Plus you have to consider that the only actual rule (as opposed to just the league set-up) was 6 max SPs. Since we deliberately decided to have that limit, I don't see how to argue that the league parameters function as rules. If no rule was ever put into place that you have to start every position, I don't see how you can make one up on the fly.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Dan Lambskin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:27 pm

Matthias wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:i've seen leagues play it both ways...where you either have to field a full lineup, or you can choose not to field a full lineup

Really? Because I don't even see this as an issue of fielding a full lineup or not. It doesn't seem like this is a case of what you do with your lineup; it's a case of exceeding your bench spots.

If the guy wanted to bench Starters instead of playing them or play inactive Starters instead of playing active ones doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue is the league has 5 bench spots; the guy is using 7 of them. If he dropped 2 hitters, didn't pick up anyone, and didn't fill his RP spots, that would be his decision IMO. But it's not his decision to have 7 or 9 or 11 or any number over 5 players on his bench.


the way i'm looking at it is you can have a maximum of 23 players on your roster...aside from 6 SP MAX rule how you choose to fill those spots is up to you. i'm not looking at the 5 bench spots as "you must have 5 and exactly 5 bench spots", but more as "if you start a full lineup, you can have at most 5 bench spots"

MrSnider wrote:
2. Bench player to me means a position player. If I say to you, "Who do the Yanks have one their bench?" you aren't going to name the SPs that aren't starting. Very clearly when you're designing the league and putting in bench spots, you're thinking about how many extra hitters you want to be able to carry.



this i 100% disagree with...it's just basic Fantasy Sports knowledge that Bench = Reserve player, regardless of position
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby MrSnider » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:38 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:i've seen leagues play it both ways...where you either have to field a full lineup, or you can choose not to field a full lineup

Really? Because I don't even see this as an issue of fielding a full lineup or not. It doesn't seem like this is a case of what you do with your lineup; it's a case of exceeding your bench spots.

If the guy wanted to bench Starters instead of playing them or play inactive Starters instead of playing active ones doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue is the league has 5 bench spots; the guy is using 7 of them. If he dropped 2 hitters, didn't pick up anyone, and didn't fill his RP spots, that would be his decision IMO. But it's not his decision to have 7 or 9 or 11 or any number over 5 players on his bench.


the way i'm looking at it is you can have a maximum of 23 players on your roster...aside from 6 SP MAX rule how you choose to fill those spots is up to you. i'm not looking at the 5 bench spots as "you must have 5 and exactly 5 bench spots", but more as "if you start a full lineup, you can have at most 5 bench spots"

MrSnider wrote:
2. Bench player to me means a position player. If I say to you, "Who do the Yanks have one their bench?" you aren't going to name the SPs that aren't starting. Very clearly when you're designing the league and putting in bench spots, you're thinking about how many extra hitters you want to be able to carry.



this i 100% disagree with...it's just basic Fantasy Sports knowledge that Bench = Reserve player, regardless of position


Hmm, we agree on one point and disagree on the other. I have been playing fantasy for a number of years in both H2H and Roto formats in several different leagues, and I have never seen bench refer to anything but position players. Obviously you can use your "bench" roster spots on pitchers, but when I have been involved in formulating the league set-up, the # of bench spots has always been to allow that # of hitters.

All-in-all, though, the definition is not important. And you agree that it's up to the owner to manage his roster.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:08 pm

Dan Lambskin wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Dan Lambskin wrote:i've seen leagues play it both ways...where you either have to field a full lineup, or you can choose not to field a full lineup

Really? Because I don't even see this as an issue of fielding a full lineup or not. It doesn't seem like this is a case of what you do with your lineup; it's a case of exceeding your bench spots.

If the guy wanted to bench Starters instead of playing them or play inactive Starters instead of playing active ones doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue is the league has 5 bench spots; the guy is using 7 of them. If he dropped 2 hitters, didn't pick up anyone, and didn't fill his RP spots, that would be his decision IMO. But it's not his decision to have 7 or 9 or 11 or any number over 5 players on his bench.

the way i'm looking at it is you can have a maximum of 23 players on your roster...aside from 6 SP MAX rule how you choose to fill those spots is up to you. i'm not looking at the 5 bench spots as "you must have 5 and exactly 5 bench spots", but more as "if you start a full lineup, you can have at most 5 bench spots"

I don't see anything in the rules that indicates that you're allowed 23 players as you see fit. By that logic, you could have 23 hitters or 6 Starting Pitchers and 17 Relievers which clearly doesn't work in the parameters of the rules.
To go back to the original post:
this is what we can start everyday:

C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, UTIL
SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP, RP, RP

BN, BN, BN, BN, BN

You can "start" 5 bench spots. Now, if you only want to use 3 bench spots or if you want to leave some of your starting spots open and bench them, that's your business. But I don't see it as any more optional to have more than 5 bench spots than it would be to start 6 OF'ers. Right there are the starting options.

Within those parameters, there's an additional stipulation that you can only have 6 SPs. But again, that doesn't trump and doesn't even effect, the above.
Hmm, we agree on one point and disagree on the other. I have been playing fantasy for a number of years in both H2H and Roto formats in several different leagues, and I have never seen bench refer to anything but position players.

Bench = bench. Bench = guys you are not using. If you want to fill your bench with positional players, that's your decision. If you want to fill your bench with SPs and rotate them in, that's your decision. If you want to fill your bench with RPs and stick them in when your SPs don't pitch, that's your business. But your interpretation means someone could have 150 relievers on their "bench" since they wouldn't count as positional players and they wouldn't violate the 6 SP rule. Given that is patently absurd, and given that I've never heard things working the way they think they do, I think you're in the wrong here.
And you agree that it's up to the owner to manage his roster.

It's not up to the owner to violate the rules of the league. The rules of the league stipulate (up to) 5 bench spots. I'm not sure why this is such a tricky idea to wrap your head around. (Actually, I do.... you want the interpretation to be the other way). It's up to the owner to decide who they put in each designated active or bench position, but it is up to the league settings to determine how many you have of each spot.

In any case, this is a verrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy long decision for a very simple question.

Five bench spots = five bench spots. Not seven, not eight, not nine, five. I'm sure your commissioner wouldn't object to 1, 2, or 3 if you wanted to carry a shorter roster to give yourself flexibility, but you don't have any right to "manage" your way to exceed it.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Matthias » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:15 pm

MrSnider wrote:Plus you have to consider that the only actual rule (as opposed to just the league set-up) was 6 max SPs. Since we deliberately decided to have that limit, I don't see how to argue that the league parameters function as rules. If no rule was ever put into place that you have to start every position, I don't see how you can make one up on the fly.

League setup = rule. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The SP maximum is just an additional rule that, of the 5 bench spots which you're given, no more than 2 of them (assuming you're filling your active spots) can be SPs.

Also, I don't see any rule that you have to start every position. All I see is that you can't exceed your bench spots. If you want to leave spots empty, then so be it. But it doesn't allow you to exceed your allocated bench.

Honestly, if I was the commissioner of your league (and I am not a rookie commissioner) I would tell you this is the way it is, like it or leave it.
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Re: Commish Forcing Roster Issues

Postby Dan Lambskin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:49 pm

Matthias wrote:I don't see anything in the rules that indicates that you're allowed 23 players as you see fit. By that logic, you could have 23 hitters or 6 Starting Pitchers and 17 Relievers which clearly doesn't work in the parameters of the rules.
To go back to the original post:
this is what we can start everyday:

C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, OF, OF, OF, UTIL
SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, RP, RP, RP

BN, BN, BN, BN, BN

You can "start" 5 bench spots. Now, if you only want to use 3 bench spots or if you want to leave some of your starting spots open and bench them, that's your business. But I don't see it as any more optional to have more than 5 bench spots than it would be to start 6 OF'ers. Right there are the starting options.

Within those parameters, there's an additional stipulation that you can only have 6 SPs. But again, that doesn't trump and doesn't even effect, the above.
you wanted to carry a shorter roster to give yourself flexibility, but you don't have any right to "manage" your way to exceed it.



i've always assumed that unless you have specific reserve requirements (i.e. you can only have X reserves) or Minimum starting requirements (i.e. you must start 5 Pitchers, out of 9 possible) you can have as many as you want as long as you dont exceed the max roster requirements...therefore the BN spots are merely placeholders to help define a max roster

FWIW i did agree that i would defer to the commish ruling in this case. it's possible it's a limitation of the yahoo software (i know CBS allows you to more clearly define this...no idea about Yahoo) or that he is a rookie and didnt set it up correctly

so in general i believe you should be able to have as many reserves as you want at the expense of your starting positions unless otherwise against the rules but in this specific case i dont disagree with the commish ruling
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