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Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Madison » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:51 am

Matthias wrote:
Madison wrote:Just random thoughts...

As to it "having no meaning", that's horse pucky to say it nicely. :-b People talk to the God of their choice every single day of their lives. Does that make each conversation meaningless? When you think of the 9/11 attacks, is that meaningless to you? How about for those who live in New York? Think it's meaningless to them each time they think of the attacks? Not to mention that this guy says he didn't know the rule, which means it's the first game he's been to since the attacks. How many others were doing and experiencing this for the first time (meaning it had meaning)? Yankee tickets aren't cheap. ;-) So yes, it certainly has meaning.

Horse pucky, eh? Sorry, Mad.... I live in NYC, I go to Yankees games, I've sat through this crap. It has no meaning. Don't give me your conjecture, "I'm going to ignore the facts but create a reality that fits them." And I've been to Yankees games since 2001, probably two dozen of them, and I can tell you that I didn't know this rule of the Yankees, so it's very possible that he's been to other games since then as well.

As far as the timeliness of his suit, pfah. It takes forever to get crap together. The article doesn't say if the suit was just filed, if the parties attempted any type of negotiation before it was filed, or if there has been pre-litigation discovery going on, or anything. So it's pretty ridiculous to say that him filing his suit 7 months after the occurrence is, "far after the fact." It really isn't. And that is a fact. Besides, who knows? For all we know, the ACLU was waiting until Opening Day to see if the Yankees were going to continue the policy because if they were seeking a change to the rule, their suit would be voided for mootness if the Yankees changed their policy for 2009.


Just because remembering 9/11 may be meaningless to you, that doesn't make it meaningless to everyone.

The timeline is really irrelevant, filing at any point beyond the time he learned what that time was set aside for was too long after the fact. A snap decision to file a lawsuit not knowing that this was a remembrance ceremony is something I can understand (as long as the lawsuit is dropped once that fact has been learned), but filing anyway after knowing why that takes place is wrong.

Matthias wrote:
Madison wrote:So this guy is giving a big middle finger to all those that died and all those who's lives were affected by the terrorist attacks of 9/11 by suing over it at this point, and I flat don't see how anyone can agree with this guy. If he doesn't like the rule, fine, no biggie, that's his right to disagree with it. Send a letter, boycott the Yankees, go to Mets games instead, watch on TV, or whatever else, but his rights do not override everyone else's rights. His self-entitled attitude is sickening.

What "right" of everyone else's is he overriding? Please name it.

Also, wanting to leave your seat in the middle of a meaningless rememberence is hardly giving a finger to everyone who has died. That's just crazy talk.

Do I agree with the merits of this guy's lawsuit? No, not really. I don't think it violates his religious or political beliefs to have him keep his seat in his seat. But I do think the little "tribute" that the Yankees do every game is devoid of meaning and I've never paid attention, but I'd be pretty shocked if everyone stayed in their seat for it... I've certainly never paid any attention to it one way or another. But as far off base you think this guy is, your evaluation of his situation is about 5 times further.


The right to not be disturbed while remembering 9/11 in a place and at a time where the establishment's owner has provided both the place and specific time.

Matter of opinion on the meaning of it all, but him showing that kind of disrespect shows me all I need to know about him.

I hope the judge hits him with court costs as he gets laughed out of court. I mean it's comical that this guy is going to say that a rememberance ceremony for the tragedy of 9/11 is meaningless... in a court of law... in New York (!)... and expect to get money out of it. :-b
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:40 am

The only issue here is that Yankee stadium is private property. The owner of the property is allowed to say who can stay and who must leave.

If you had invited this guy into your house and you asked him to leave the he would have to leave.

The only difference is that this guy had a ticket and paid money to attend. So he had a contractual right to be there for the game. It has zero to do with civil liberties or respect for the country etc.

If this guy is a season ticket holder then he clearly signed a contract agreeing to sit there for this song. If he bought a single ticket or bought from a scalper then there is an implied agreement to abide by these rules, provided they are foreseeable. This rule is a bit out of the ordinary so probably not foreseeable. The Yankees should have given him a warning and then if he didn't listen, thrown him out but refunded his money. If that was the case then he has no further rights. If they didn't warn him and/or didn't refund his money then he may be entitled to a nominal amount.

I just don't understand people complaining about the rules people make for private property. The Yankees aren't owned by the government. They are privately owned and this is private property. If anyone said that you couldn't make rules for your own house you would freak out but when it comes to the Yankees it becomes outrageous. I don't get it. The Yankees can say that aren't allowed to wear pants to the games if they want to. If you don't like it don't buy a ticket and don't go, nobody is forcing you.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Dan Lambskin » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:45 am

Mookie4ever wrote:The only issue here is that Yankee stadium is private property. The owner of the property is allowed to say who can stay and who must leave.

If you had invited this guy into your house and you asked him to leave the he would have to leave.

The only difference is that this guy had a ticket and paid money to attend. So he had a contractual right to be there for the game. It has zero to do with civil liberties or respect for the country etc.

If this guy is a season ticket holder then he clearly signed a contract agreeing to sit there for this song. If he bought a single ticket or bought from a scalper then there is an implied agreement to abide by these rules, provided they are foreseeable. This rule is a bit out of the ordinary so probably not foreseeable. The Yankees should have given him a warning and then if he didn't listen, thrown him out but refunded his money. If that was the case then he has no further rights. If they didn't warn him and/or didn't refund his money then he may be entitled to a nominal amount.

I just don't understand people complaining about the rules people make for private property. The Yankees aren't owned by the government. They are privately owned and this is private property. If anyone said that you couldn't make rules for your own house you would freak out but when it comes to the Yankees it becomes outrageous. I don't get it. The Yankees can say that aren't allowed to wear pants to the games if they want to. If you don't like it don't buy a ticket and don't go, nobody is forcing you.



what if Keanu Reeves was driving the Speed bus through Yankee Stadium during this song...would you want him to stop?
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Matthias » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:13 am

Madison wrote:
Matthias wrote:What "right" of everyone else's is he overriding? Please name it.

The right to not be disturbed while remembering 9/11 in a place and at a time where the establishment's owner has provided both the place and specific time.

I didn't realize that was a right. You want to point me to where in your pocketbook US Constitution it appears?
Madison wrote:I hope the judge hits him with court costs as he gets laughed out of court. I mean it's comical that this guy is going to say that a rememberance ceremony for the tragedy of 9/11 is meaningless... in a court of law... in New York (!)... and expect to get money out of it. :-b

Do you know that he's asking for money? It took me 4 articles to find anything on what he was seeking.
The lawsuit seeks unspecified damages and a ruling that the city and the Yankees acted unconstitutionally.

He could just be looking for vindication. In any case, on the site of the NY Daily News (one of the smaller dailies here in NYC), on the page that has this article, they have an online poll on if someone should be forced to sit at something they bought a ticket to and 83% of the people said no, they shouldn't (and 3% said they don't go to sports so don't have an opinion). Who knows what the sample is yadda yadda but my guess is most New Yorkers feel the same. I mean, do you know when they play this? It's during the 7th-Inning Stretch.

I think when you get down to the nuts and bolts of the situation, you have 3 realities:
1) The Yankees have a policy which they don't really enforce.
2) The security officers decided to enforce it with respect to this particular guy because he was loud or obnoxious or whatever.
3) They were a little rough with him.

Generally, I agree with Mookie's take on this.... as I said above, I don't see this as a civil rights issue. But it's not completely correct to say this is a purely private contract issue if the guy could make the argument that Yankees Stadium represented a joint private/public endeavor (through the Yankees catching breaks on taxes or the city paying outlays for structural improvements to the area or whatever.... I'm not going to spit about those points in particular, just saying that the Yankees are not necessarily a purely private enterprise for purposes of this lawsuit) but this is mostly a, "how this was handled" type of issue. But to get upset about this guy disrespecting people who died in the World Trade Centers is just way off the handle. He went to use the john at a baseball game during the 7th-inning stretch. This is not a moral issue.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby knapplc » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:21 am

Mookie4ever wrote:The only issue here is that Yankee stadium is private property. The owner of the property is allowed to say who can stay and who must leave.

If you had invited this guy into your house and you asked him to leave the he would have to leave.

The only difference is that this guy had a ticket and paid money to attend. So he had a contractual right to be there for the game. It has zero to do with civil liberties or respect for the country etc.

If this guy is a season ticket holder then he clearly signed a contract agreeing to sit there for this song. If he bought a single ticket or bought from a scalper then there is an implied agreement to abide by these rules, provided they are foreseeable. This rule is a bit out of the ordinary so probably not foreseeable. The Yankees should have given him a warning and then if he didn't listen, thrown him out but refunded his money. If that was the case then he has no further rights. If they didn't warn him and/or didn't refund his money then he may be entitled to a nominal amount.

I just don't understand people complaining about the rules people make for private property. The Yankees aren't owned by the government. They are privately owned and this is private property. If anyone said that you couldn't make rules for your own house you would freak out but when it comes to the Yankees it becomes outrageous. I don't get it. The Yankees can say that aren't allowed to wear pants to the games if they want to. If you don't like it don't buy a ticket and don't go, nobody is forcing you.

Do they not have public accommodations laws in Canada? I would imagine if this guy protested on the basis of religion he would have a case. I don't know that he would win, but he's got "something."

Whether it's private property or not, the Yankees are "offering or holding out to the general public goods, services, privileges, facilities, advantages, and/or accommodations." By doing so they fall under state and federal PA laws, and can be sued if they piss someone off. Which, apparently, they did.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby bigh0rt » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:23 am

I've been to probably 50 Yankee games, and I never had any idea this was a rule, nor do I think it should be.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Madison » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:07 am

Matthias wrote:I didn't realize that was a right. You want to point me to where in your pocketbook US Constitution it appears?


Show me his, both sides are perfectly equal here. If he has the right to disrupt the ceremony, others have the right to not have it disrupted.

Matthias wrote:He could just be looking for vindication.


True. I seriously doubt it, I'm sure he's after money, but that is a valid point.

Matthias wrote:In any case, on the site of the NY Daily News (one of the smaller dailies here in NYC), on the page that has this article, they have an online poll on if someone should be forced to sit at something they bought a ticket to and 83% of the people said no, they shouldn't (and 3% said they don't go to sports so don't have an opinion).


That says a ton about the people who voted in the poll if you worded that the way it was worded in the poll. People buy tickets to the movies and are required to be seated, people buy tickets to amusement parks and are not only required to be seated on the rides, but they are strapped in. Plane tickets, bus tickets, concerts, comedian acts, magic acts, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on, so those poll results are quite funny. :-b

Matthias wrote:But to get upset about this guy disrespecting people who died in the World Trade Centers is just way off the handle. He went to use the john at a baseball game during the 7th-inning stretch. This is not a moral issue.


As I said before, write letters, boycott, yadda, yadda, yadda. Suing is in extremely poor taste and by going to that ridiculous mile, I see it as an idiot being self-centered and giving the memory of 9/11 the finger. Meh, shrug, one of those things.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Matthias » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:34 am

Madison wrote:
Matthias wrote:I didn't realize that was a right. You want to point me to where in your pocketbook US Constitution it appears?

Show me his, both sides are perfectly equal here. If he has the right to disrupt the ceremony, others have the right to not have it disrupted.

You're making a dispute when one doesn't exist. I'm not saying that his rights are superior to theirs; I'm saying that I don't think that this is a rights issue at all, on either side. You were the one who brought in the issue. So I'm just asking you to identify what rights you think are involved; right to "not have a ceremony disrupted" is not a right.
Madison wrote:
Matthias wrote:In any case, on the site of the NY Daily News (one of the smaller dailies here in NYC), on the page that has this article, they have an online poll on if someone should be forced to sit at something they bought a ticket to and 83% of the people said no, they shouldn't (and 3% said they don't go to sports so don't have an opinion).

That says a ton about the people who voted in the poll if you worded that the way it was worded in the poll. People buy tickets to the movies and are required to be seated, people buy tickets to amusement parks and are not only required to be seated on the rides, but they are strapped in. Plane tickets, bus tickets, concerts, comedian acts, magic acts, etc, etc, etc. The list goes on and on, so those poll results are quite funny. :-b

I didn't realize we were going to play nit-pick, but the wording on the poll is:
Oh my 'God'
Should sports fans be allowed to move around during "God Bless America"?
    Yes. A paying fan should be allowed to move around whenever - except when in danger.
    No. It's disrespectful and shouldn't be tolerated.
    I don't care. I never go to sporting events.

But if you want to make fun of the New Yorkers voting in the poll that last night you were so hyper-sensitive to their feelings and emotions on a tribute to the World Trade Center attacks, then be my guest. And don't worry about the hypocrisy of pandering to New Yorkers and then ridiculing us in the next breath; we've gotten used to it from Republicans.
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Madison » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:51 am

Matthias wrote:You're making a dispute when one doesn't exist. I'm not saying that his rights are superior to theirs; I'm saying that I don't think that this is a rights issue at all, on either side. You were the one who brought in the issue. So I'm just asking you to identify what rights you think are involved; right to "not have a ceremony disrupted" is not a right.


If it's not a rights issue, then he's got no grounds to sue. Simple as that. If you defend him, you're saying he's got the right to disrupt the ceremony, which in turn gives the right to others to have that ceremony not be disrupted.

If you're arguing just to argue, cool, but you cannot have it both ways on this one. :-b

Matthias wrote:I didn't realize we were going to play nit-pick, but the wording on the poll is:
Oh my 'God'
Should sports fans be allowed to move around during "God Bless America"?
    Yes. A paying fan should be allowed to move around whenever - except when in danger.
    No. It's disrespectful and shouldn't be tolerated.
    I don't care. I never go to sporting events.

But if you want to make fun of the New Yorkers voting in the poll that last night you were so hyper-sensitive to their feelings and emotions on a tribute to the World Trade Center attacks, then be my guest. And don't worry about the hypocrisy of pandering to New Yorkers and then ridiculing us in the next breath; we've gotten used to it from Republicans.


You are way too sensitive man. :-b I wasn't nitpicking, I was asking a question. Sheesh. :*)

Yes, I found the results amusing, but that doesn't qualify as "ridiculing" anyone. Are you so backed into a corner that your only out is to attempt (and poorly I might add) to paint me as a bad guy?

As a counter to the poll, I offer the original article on page one of this thread that states the rule became a rule because of the fans complaining that people were not being respectful of the ceremony.

And the horribly attempted insult says way more about you than anything I could. I mean call me ugly, say I dress funny, whatever, that wouldn't make you look nearly as pitiful as trying to jerk my chain with the lame attempt at an insult. I almost feel sorry for you.
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Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: Another Reason to Hate the Yankees

Postby Matthias » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:34 am

Madison wrote:
Matthias wrote:You're making a dispute when one doesn't exist. I'm not saying that his rights are superior to theirs; I'm saying that I don't think that this is a rights issue at all, on either side. You were the one who brought in the issue. So I'm just asking you to identify what rights you think are involved; right to "not have a ceremony disrupted" is not a right.

If it's not a rights issue, then he's got no grounds to sue. Simple as that. If you defend him, you're saying he's got the right to disrupt the ceremony, which in turn gives the right to others to have that ceremony not be disrupted.

If you're arguing just to argue, cool, but you cannot have it both ways on this one. :-b

When you can't defend, attack?
Madison wrote:So this guy is giving a big middle finger to all those that died and all those who's lives were affected by the terrorist attacks of 9/11 by suing over it at this point, and I flat don't see how anyone can agree with this guy. If he doesn't like the rule, fine, no biggie, that's his right to disagree with it. Send a letter, boycott the Yankees, go to Mets games instead, watch on TV, or whatever else, but his rights do not override everyone else's rights.

Matthias wrote:Do I agree with the merits of this guy's lawsuit? No, not really. I don't think it violates his religious or political beliefs to have him keep his seat in his seat. But I do think the little "tribute" that the Yankees do every game is devoid of meaning and I've never paid attention, but I'd be pretty shocked if everyone stayed in their seat for it...

In any case, your logic is complete off. You're saying that if people don't have a "right to not have their ceremony disrupted" (since you haven't identified any other right yet) that the other guy doesn't have a right "to disrupt the ceremony." Except, of course, that's not the right that he's asserting. He's asserting his freedom of religious and political beliefs. And him having his own belief does not mean that other people don't have a right to their own or vice versa. We accord the right to everyone to have their own beliefs... that's what freedom is all about. So they have the right to listen to whatever they want and he has the right not to. Any other conceptualization is not freedom of belief, but mandated uniformity.

I don't almost feel sorry for you; I feel genuinely sorry for you. You have to construct wild scenarios to keep the world spinning how you conceive it.
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