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Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:03 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:So you are in effect saying that Bo Jackson was a wuss....and that Chris Young has no health-related skills because he couldn't avoid a 100+ MPH ball coming at his face. Damn him, broken face, cracked skull and all.....he should have put it out of his mind and concentrated like Cal.....he could have at least finished the inning. Stupid Kaz Matsui and his anal fissures. Why did Mario Lemieux retire? Because he was unskillful in avoiding Hodgkins' Disease? Because he wasn't concentrating properly?

DiMaggio could have refused to have swung his bat at any of those pitches. He is, in effect, making the choice of whether or not to put a ball in play. I might have gone too far in saying complete control, but he had an almost infinite amount of control compared to Ripken and his "ability" to stay healthy.


Did I say Jackson was a wuss? No, I am saying some part of health is skill. And some part of it is luck. Some part of hitting is skill. And some part of it is luck.

Is it really that hard to understand?
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:06 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:
Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


Taking amazing statistical records and comparing them to something like staying healthy obviously proves nothing, so I won't comment on that.


Those records have some degree of luck as well. Also, if they were able to stay healthy during the time they broke those records.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:07 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:I don't believe anyone is trying to argue that Ripken's streak is all luck, however luck does play a great factor. Tom Brady had an impressive consecutive start streak of 111 games (4th best ever impressive) until Bernard Pollard came by. Brett Favre and Cal Ripken are lucky that they didn't encounter a Bernard Pollard, because if they did their streaks would have been ended also. The best physical conditioning in the world cannot stop a Bernard Pollard from ending your streak.
I'm not exactly sure about how health is considered a skill when freak accidents can occur. For example, Duaner Sanchez must be very unskillful in taxi cab accidents or he would still be pitching for the Mets. As the bumper sticker in Forrest Gump says, "**** happens." Some us of might be lucky enough to avoid it, as did Ripken.


Yes, some streaks are indeed ended by freak accidents. Other than say, Brady's, are the majority of streaks ended by some fluky off-the-wall incident? I'd argue maybe 1 out of 100 are ended that way. The majority are because of a pulled muscle, strained ligament, sprained ankle, etc. Yes, Ripken has been lucky to not get hit by a car or mauled by a bear, but so are the majority of baseball players. For every trip on the DL from playing Guitar Hero, there are 100s more from actual sports related incidents that could have possibly been avoided with the correct precautions.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:11 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


I don't believe anyone is trying to argue that Ripken's streak is all luck, however luck does play a great factor. Tom Brady had an impressive consecutive start streak of 111 games (4th best ever impressive) until Bernard Pollard came by. Brett Favre and Cal Ripken are lucky that they didn't encounter a Bernard Pollard, because if they did their streaks would have been ended also. The best physical conditioning in the world cannot stop a Bernard Pollard from ending your streak.
I'm not exactly sure about how health is considered a skill when freak accidents can occur. For example, Duaner Sanchez must be very unskillful in taxi cab accidents or he would still be pitching for the Mets. As the bumper sticker in Forrest Gump says, "**** happens." Some us of might be lucky enough to avoid it, as did Ripken.


I suggest you look back to the posts that indicated it was "pure luck."

Is it really that hard to understand that health involves both skill and luck? Ripken was not JUST lucky. His behavior made sure that little injuries did not become big ones. His ability to concentrate beyond pain meant he was still able to perform well even when injured.

Certainly, he was lucky that he was not in an auto accident.

He was also skillful in making sure that he avoided any of the number of the long-term repetitive injuries that typically plague players because they do not exhibit the same training methods he (and many other players did).

Look across seasons. There are some players that frequently get injured and others that frequently play nearly every game.

Is that all luck? Or are some players better at conditioning themselves for the season than others?

Do you pick injury prone players in fantasy drafts figuring that the last few years they were just "unlucky"?
Or do you recognize that some players are more likely to be healthy than others? Unless you simply assume that those healthy players are purely blessed with genetic health (and I think any honest appraisal of health shows behavior is at least as important if not more important than genes), than you must admit that some of these players are more skillful in staying healthy.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Tavish » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:18 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:When it comes to something like health, and so few have done it, it is indeed almost solely due to luck. It blows my mind that nobody comprehends this. Did Bo Jackson become less tough when his freakin hip was dislocated? See....toughness and diligence in sports to me is watching him rehabilitate a crazy, career ending type of injury like that and coming back to hit a homer in his first post-injury swing at the plate. That's real toughness and diligence. Not playing through knick-knack injuries while being lucky enough to avoid the major ones that have befallen thousands of untough wussy athletes throughout the years.


Attributing Ripken's streak completely to luck is as much a disservice as saying it had absolutely nothing to do with luck. There are vast numbers of players who have played the large majority of their career without ever suffering a major injury, yet they still sat out a handful of games each season. Carl Yastrzemski played in the second most games of any player in MLB history and never played every game in a season, Hank Aaron is #3 and played every game in 2 seasons for his career, Eddie Murray who is 6th on the list had 1 season. Musial missed about 20 games in 13 years, Mays missed about 4 or 5 games a year for 14 years. Then there are a great deal of other players who simply didn't have the talent to produce day in and day out for even 5+ years who's careers ended without anything to do with injuries.

So I guess in some ways you can consider Ripken lucky that he didn't have Hodgkins or ALS, but no luckier than the 99+% of other athletes who don't have a major disease that cuts their career short. He was lucky that he never had a major injury, although he isn't anywhere near the exception to the rule that athletes will get a major injury in their careers. I don't consider it at all luck that he was able to play at a high level from the time he got a full time job in the majors at 21 until his late 30s when most players are well past their prime. And I don't consider it luck that he played the extra handful of games that typically every other player including some of the games greatest players take off each season.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby grover999 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:21 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
IVIisfits138 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


I don't believe anyone is trying to argue that Ripken's streak is all luck, however luck does play a great factor. Tom Brady had an impressive consecutive start streak of 111 games (4th best ever impressive) until Bernard Pollard came by. Brett Favre and Cal Ripken are lucky that they didn't encounter a Bernard Pollard, because if they did their streaks would have been ended also. The best physical conditioning in the world cannot stop a Bernard Pollard from ending your streak.
I'm not exactly sure about how health is considered a skill when freak accidents can occur. For example, Duaner Sanchez must be very unskillful in taxi cab accidents or he would still be pitching for the Mets. As the bumper sticker in Forrest Gump says, "**** happens." Some us of might be lucky enough to avoid it, as did Ripken.


I suggest you look back to the posts that indicated it was "pure luck."

Is it really that hard to understand that health involves both skill and luck? Ripken was not JUST lucky. His behavior made sure that little injuries did not become big ones. His ability to concentrate beyond pain meant he was still able to perform well even when injured.

Certainly, he was lucky that he was not in an auto accident.

He was also skillful in making sure that he avoided any of the number of the long-term repetitive injuries that typically plague players because they do not exhibit the same training methods he (and many other players did).

Look across seasons. There are some players that frequently get injured and others that frequently play nearly every game.

Is that all luck? Or are some players better at conditioning themselves for the season than others?

Do you pick injury prone players in fantasy drafts figuring that the last few years they were just "unlucky"?
Or do you recognize that some players are more likely to be healthy than others? Unless you simply assume that those healthy players are purely blessed with genetic health (and I think any honest appraisal of health shows behavior is at least as important if not more important than genes), than you must admit that some of these players are more skillful in staying healthy.


I know I am late here, but you lost me when you tried to say that Ripken is a better player than Puckett. I guess Puckett was "unskilled when he was diagnosed with gloucoma"(sp?). Puckett meant much more to his team than Ripken ever did. I remember a poll of baseball players, and Kirby was the one that most players said they wanted to watch play. I'm going to guess that Ripken isn't on that list. I'm not al all saying that Mr. Ripken isn't a very good baseball player, but come on if you weren't a Baltimore guy you wouldn't be sticking up for him.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby IVIisfits138 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:23 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Do you pick injury prone players in fantasy drafts figuring that the last few years they were just "unlucky"?
Or do you recognize that some players are more likely to be healthy than others? Unless you simply assume that those healthy players are purely blessed with genetic health (and I think any honest appraisal of health shows behavior is at least as important if not more important than genes), than you must admit that some of these players are more skillful in staying healthy.


Obviously some players are considered injury prone - such as Mark Prior, Rich Harden, Howie Kendrick, etc. I believe this is caused by genetics because these are multi million dollar athletes, why wouldn't they want to condition their hardest?
The counter part are those players that are considered durable. This is a player such as Cal Ripken. But even being a durable player with great genetics and conditioning, having played so many games in a row he is lucky to not have sustained a serious injury at least once.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Tavish » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:24 pm

grover999 wrote:I know I am late here, but you lost me when you tried to say that Ripken is a better player than Puckett. I guess Puckett was "unskilled when he was diagnosed with gloucoma"(sp?). Puckett meant much more to his team than Ripken ever did. I remember a poll of baseball players, and Kirby was the one that most players said they wanted to watch play. I'm going to guess that Ripken isn't on that list. I'm not al all saying that Mr. Ripken isn't a very good baseball player, but come on if you weren't a Baltimore guy you wouldn't be sticking up for him.

Not sure what GTWMA said about Puckett, but I will say without hesitation that Ripken was not only a better player than Puckett, he was a much better player than Puckett. And that is disregarding the longevity factor.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby grover999 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:31 pm

Tavish wrote:
grover999 wrote:I know I am late here, but you lost me when you tried to say that Ripken is a better player than Puckett. I guess Puckett was "unskilled when he was diagnosed with gloucoma"(sp?). Puckett meant much more to his team than Ripken ever did. I remember a poll of baseball players, and Kirby was the one that most players said they wanted to watch play. I'm going to guess that Ripken isn't on that list. I'm not al all saying that Mr. Ripken isn't a very good baseball player, but come on if you weren't a Baltimore guy you wouldn't be sticking up for him.

Not sure what GTWMA said about Puckett, but I will say without hesitation that Ripken was not only a better player than Puckett, he was a much better player than Puckett. And that is disregarding the longevity factor.


I'm not a baseball guy: What does GTWMA mean? Though I have limited baseball knowledge, Ripken was not a better player than Kirby.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:39 pm

grover999 wrote:
Tavish wrote:
grover999 wrote:I know I am late here, but you lost me when you tried to say that Ripken is a better player than Puckett. I guess Puckett was "unskilled when he was diagnosed with gloucoma"(sp?). Puckett meant much more to his team than Ripken ever did. I remember a poll of baseball players, and Kirby was the one that most players said they wanted to watch play. I'm going to guess that Ripken isn't on that list. I'm not al all saying that Mr. Ripken isn't a very good baseball player, but come on if you weren't a Baltimore guy you wouldn't be sticking up for him.

Not sure what GTWMA said about Puckett, but I will say without hesitation that Ripken was not only a better player than Puckett, he was a much better player than Puckett. And that is disregarding the longevity factor.


I'm not a baseball guy: What does GTWMA mean? Though I have limited baseball knowledge, Ripken was not a better player than Kirby.


Ripken's peak years were much better than Puckett's. IMO, Puckett is not a HOFer.
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