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Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby RAmst23 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:22 pm

I don't see this argument ending any time soon, and I personally think it's pointless.

Take away Ripken's streak from him, just go ahead and dump it. Say he did miss a few games to rehab and never completed the streak. It's not as if Cal's in the Hall because he played a bunch of games in the row. He was a dominant short stop for 10 plus year in addition to amassing strong longevity stats.

Endurance and stamina, as both sides seem to agree, takes some degree of skill and luck. To what measure it takes of these two attributes is debatable, but regardless they're both present.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:56 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:The fact that nobody has been able to sustain a streak of any kind is easily an indicator that a streak of that kind is more luck than anything else. What makes Ripken so special that he was able to escape injury throughout his entire career? Are we equating his streak to him being in better shape than any player in baseball history? You can't. It's pure luck that he was able to play that many games in a row without sustaining an injury that would keep him out of one game. It's asinine to think any other way.


The fact that nobody has been able to sustain a streak of any kind is easily an indicator that Dimaggio's streak is more luck than anything else. What makes Joe so special that he was able to get a hit through 56 straight games? Are we equating his streak to him being a better hitter than any other player in baseball history? You can't. It's pure luck that he was able to get a hit that many games in a row. It's asinine to think any other way.



I see what you did there. That's so clever. You should write that down.

DiMaggio's streak is obviously more attributable to skill than Ripken's. He was fully in control of the outcome of each at-bat during his streak. Unless you believe Cal was fully in control of everything around him every day he played. You know, flying asteroids, natural disasters, nuclear bombs, that kind of stuff.

It's hard to even take what you say into consideration given you are an Orioles homer who is going to defend Ripken to the end regardless of whether or not you are wrong. Players get injured every day in every sport. The fact that there are five 1000+ streaks out of thousands and thousands and thousands of players who have stepped foot on a major league field should tell you that it is indeed a product of luck more than anything.

Somebody please explain HOW health is a skill. I just want to hear the explanation.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:05 pm

RAmst23 wrote:I don't see this argument ending any time soon, and I personally think it's pointless.

Take away Ripken's streak from him, just go ahead and dump it. Say he did miss a few games to rehab and never completed the streak. It's not as if Cal's in the Hall because he played a bunch of games in the row. He was a dominant short stop for 10 plus year in addition to amassing strong longevity stats.

Endurance and stamina, as both sides seem to agree, takes some degree of skill and luck. To what measure it takes of these two attributes is debatable, but regardless they're both present.


Agreed.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:26 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:DiMaggio's streak is obviously more attributable to skill than Ripken's. He was fully in control of the outcome of each at-bat during his streak.


You are clearly talking through your hat. Pitchers had no control? Fielders? Official scorers? You really need to read a few things on Dimag's streak. Here's an excerpt you might benefit from reading:

Holway points out that five of DiMaggio's successes were narrow escapes and lucky breaks. He received two benefits-of-the-doubt from official scorers on plays that might have been judged as errors. In each of two games, his only hit was a cheapie. (In game sixteen, a ball dropped untouched in the outfield and had to be ruled a hit, even though the ball could have been caught, had it not been misjudged; in game fifty-four, DiMaggio dribbled one down the third base line, easily beating the throw because the third baseman, expecting the usual, was playing far back.) The fifth incident is an ofttold tale, perhaps the most interesting story of the streak. In game thirty-eight, DiMaggio was 0 for 3 going into the last inning. Scheduled to bat fourth, he might have been denied a chance to hit at all. Johnny Sturm popped up to begin the inning, but Red Rolfe then walked. Slugger Tommy Henrich, up next, was suddenly swept with a premonitory fear: suppose I ground into a double play and end the inning. An elegant solution immediately occurred to him: why not bunt (an odd strategy for a power hitter)? Henrich laid down a beauty; DiMaggio, up next, promptly drilled a double to left.

Fully in control? My ass. Luck plays an important role in EVERY event in baseball.


AquaMan2342 wrote:Unless you believe Cal was fully in control of everything around him every day he played. You know, flying asteroids, natural disasters, nuclear bombs, that kind of stuff.

It's hard to even take what you say into consideration given you are an Orioles homer who is going to defend Ripken to the end regardless of whether or not you are wrong. Players get injured every day in every sport. The fact that there are five 1000+ streaks out of thousands and thousands and thousands of players who have stepped foot on a major league field should tell you that it is indeed a product of luck more than anything.

Somebody please explain HOW health is a skill. I just want to hear the explanation.


You seem to be completely unable to see any shades other than black or white. It's either fully in control or purely random. It's either all skill or it's pure luck.

It's both. Dimaggio had great skill and ability. He also had luck. Ripken's health involves his own great skill and ability to prepare and prevent injury, as well as his skill and ability to play through injury.

Health is a skill because it depends on your behavior. Your eating habits, stretching habits, workout habits, off-season training habits, pre-season workout preparation, all cumulate into your ability to play each day. Some guys do not put this effort into it. They do not have the ability to put the pain out of their mind and concentrate--witness the way Pujols have been able to perform despite injuries that have required DL trips by other players. Great players got to where they are because of this skill.

There are only 6 hitting streaks longer than 40 games. There are only 6 consecutive game streaks that are longer than 1,000. Why is one evidence of luck and not the other? Why is one evidence of skill and not the other?

Both are the product of both extraordinary skill AND some measure of luck.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:27 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:Somebody please explain HOW health is a skill. I just want to hear the explanation.


Obviously you and those of us who argue the opposite have quite different opinions on what a "skill" is. You believe that anything that is not 100% in your control cannot be considered a skill. We believe differently. I think it is quite obvious that some luck plays into being able to stay healthy - since he didn't slip getting out of his hot tub or anything - but the ability to play the equivalent of 16 MLB seasons without missing a game is a testament to more than his ability to avoid fluke injuries. You're making it sound like the average MLB player goes on the DL or misses a game not because of a baseball injury, but some fluke like getting beaned in the head or fielders crashing into each other, or pulling a groin doing the chicken dance at his niece's wedding. No one is fully in control of their "skills" anyway. DiMaggio wasn't able to force pitchers to not pitch around him, or Bonds, or Maris, or Ruth, or anyone. Ripken's health is the same as Ricky Henderson's base stealing or Mark McGwire's power - it was natural talent blended with the determination to practice, train, eat correctly, study.

Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:43 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


Taking amazing statistical records and comparing them to something like staying healthy obviously proves nothing, so I won't comment on that.

When it comes to something like health, and so few have done it, it is indeed almost solely due to luck. It blows my mind that nobody comprehends this. Did Bo Jackson become less tough when his freakin hip was dislocated? See....toughness and diligence in sports to me is watching him rehabilitate a crazy, career ending type of injury like that and coming back to hit a homer in his first post-injury swing at the plate. That's real toughness and diligence. Not playing through knick-knack injuries while being lucky enough to avoid the major ones that have befallen thousands of untough wussy athletes throughout the years.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:54 pm

Health is a skill because it depends on your behavior. Your eating habits, stretching habits, workout habits, off-season training habits, pre-season workout preparation, all cumulate into your ability to play each day. Some guys do not put this effort into it. They do not have the ability to put the pain out of their mind and concentrate--witness the way Pujols have been able to perform despite injuries that have required DL trips by other players. Great players got to where they are because of this skill.


So you are in effect saying that Bo Jackson was a wuss....and that Chris Young has no health-related skills because he couldn't avoid a 100+ MPH ball coming at his face. Damn him, broken face, cracked skull and all.....he should have put it out of his mind and concentrated like Cal.....he could have at least finished the inning. Stupid Kaz Matsui and his anal fissures. Why did Mario Lemieux retire? Because he was unskillful in avoiding Hodgkins' Disease? Because he wasn't concentrating properly?

DiMaggio could have refused to have swung his bat at any of those pitches. He is, in effect, making the choice of whether or not to put a ball in play. I might have gone too far in saying complete control, but he had an almost infinite amount of control compared to Ripken and his "ability" to stay healthy.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby IVIisfits138 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:56 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


I don't believe anyone is trying to argue that Ripken's streak is all luck, however luck does play a great factor. Tom Brady had an impressive consecutive start streak of 111 games (4th best ever impressive) until Bernard Pollard came by. Brett Favre and Cal Ripken are lucky that they didn't encounter a Bernard Pollard, because if they did their streaks would have been ended also. The best physical conditioning in the world cannot stop a Bernard Pollard from ending your streak.
I'm not exactly sure about how health is considered a skill when freak accidents can occur. For example, Duaner Sanchez must be very unskillful in taxi cab accidents or he would still be pitching for the Mets. As the bumper sticker in Forrest Gump says, "**** happens." Some us of might be lucky enough to avoid it, as did Ripken.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:00 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:
Your logic just seems so flawed. Since there have been so few able to do it, it must be luck. Was Bond's single season HR record luck, since no one else has been able to come close. Wilt's 100 point game? DiMaggio's streak? Untouchable records by Jordon, Gretzky, Emmit, etc? The perfect example is Brett Favre. You won't find one NFL player or reputable analyst or sports writer who will tell you his entire streak was luck, but rather toughness and diligence - attributes that aren't inherent but nurtured. The same holds true for Ripken.


Taking amazing statistical records and comparing them to something like staying healthy obviously proves nothing, so I won't comment on that.

When it comes to something like health, and so few have done it, it is indeed almost solely due to luck. It blows my mind that nobody comprehends this. Did Bo Jackson become less tough when his freakin hip was dislocated? See....toughness and diligence in sports to me is watching him rehabilitate a crazy, career ending type of injury like that and coming back to hit a homer in his first post-injury swing at the plate. That's real toughness and diligence. Not playing through knick-knack injuries while being lucky enough to avoid the major ones that have befallen thousands of untough wussy athletes throughout the years.


You have obviously never played any major sport at a significant level.

I wrestled in college. Toughness and diligence is recognize that EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY FOR THE NEXT SIX MONTHS SOME SIGNIFICANT PART OF YOUR BODY IS GOING TO BE FREAKING SCREAMING IN PAIN.

And going out and practicing and competing every day despite that.

Knick-knack injuries my butt. Pujols plays full seasons with injuries that other guys have operations for. Ripken played full seasons with major back pain.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:01 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:When it comes to something like health, and so few have done it, it is indeed almost solely due to luck.


Give me an example of anything else where this statement would be true - where something done by no one else would be solely credited to luck. Heck, it doesn't even have to be in sports - and no, the guy who accidentally invented Reese's when get got chocolate in his peanut butter, doesn't count.

If Ripken's entire streak was completely driven by luck, what would you say were the chances of it ever happening in the first place? A million to one? A trillion? 2600+ games is one hell of a statistical anomaly.

But just like GTWMA said, you seem to see only in black and white. There is either tough, or not at all. There is either diligence or not at all. There is either skill, or not at all.
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