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Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:53 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
IVIisfits138 wrote:Just want to throw in Bill Simmons' 2001 article on the matter,
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1256352
I'm sure this will likely fall to deaf ears because majority of the people on here probably hate Simmons because he is a "homer" but I personally enjoy reading all of his articles.


Citing Kirby Puckett as a worthwhile Hall of Famer in arguing against Ripken is all the evidence you really need to understand the sad, shallow ignorance that typifies Bill Simmons' writing.


I wouldn't say that Simmons attempted to use Puckett as an example to argue against Ripken. It seems more as if he said the reason Puckett is in the HOF is because of his post season performance. I don't personally agree because this could easily lead to the creation of a topic of "Why is Kirby Puckett considered great?" and then compare his statistics to that of Don Mattingly.


Well, no. He's quite clearly saying that one of the many reasons why he is unimpressed by Ripken is because, unlike Puckett, he never did something like Kirby did in the post-season. That's wrong on so many levels, it's hard to know where to begin.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:54 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:Health is a skill? Probably the stupidest thing I have ever read.

There's no doubt that there is plenty you can do to avoid certain injuries, but was Ripken so skillful at swinging the bat in a manner that avoids foul tips smashing his shin or breaking his toes? Was he so graceful as to avoid every player coming into second with spikes up? Or colliding with an incoming outfielder trying to catch a shallow fly ball? You know, the kinds of injuries that unskilled players get every year.


I'm just flabbergasted on how some of you can attribute his entire streak to luck... Considering that active leader for consecutive games played has changed several times over the past year - at one time Francoeur, Sizemore, Howard, Young, and Pierre. Hell, Francoeur's ended at 370. Ripken's ended at over 2600. All time after Gehrig, next in line has HALF as many as Ripken.

So if this was all luck, statistically Ripken would what, have a better chance to get struck by lightning and winning the lottery the same day?


It's complete luck that he played that many games in a row without acquiring an injury in which he had no control over happening. That's what luck is. Avoiding things that you have no control over. Your point in showing the constant changeover in who has played the most consecutive games does nothing but validate that point. You have to be lucky to avoid injuries, no matter how hard you work to avoid them.


To some degree yes it was luck that he did not suffer a freak injury. However, you still can't deny that he kept his body in such condition to be able to take the beating from playing an incredibly demanding position for that long. Clearly he suffered injuries and played through pain over the years but he managed to play in all those games.

To those who think he is selfish, did he resist moving to 3B when they asked him?
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby KCollins1304 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:58 pm

Yoda wrote:
AquaMan2342 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:
I'm just flabbergasted on how some of you can attribute his entire streak to luck... Considering that active leader for consecutive games played has changed several times over the past year - at one time Francoeur, Sizemore, Howard, Young, and Pierre. Hell, Francoeur's ended at 370. Ripken's ended at over 2600. All time after Gehrig, next in line has HALF as many as Ripken.

So if this was all luck, statistically Ripken would what, have a better chance to get struck by lightning and winning the lottery the same day?


It's complete luck that he played that many games in a row without acquiring an injury in which he had no control over happening. That's what luck is. Avoiding things that you have no control over. Your point in showing the constant changeover in who has played the most consecutive games does nothing but validate that point. You have to be lucky to avoid injuries, no matter how hard you work to avoid them.


To some degree yes it was luck that he did not suffer a freak injury. However, you still can't deny that he kept his body in such condition to be able to take the beating from playing an incredibly demanding position for that long. Clearly he suffered injuries and played through pain over the years but he managed to play in all those games.

To those who think he is selfish, did he resist moving to 3B when they asked him?


If he got himself ejected on purpose to keep the streak going, then I would consider that selfish. I don't think playing every game is that great of an idea though. I think he would have gotten more out of his career if he had rehabbed his injuries rather than playing hurt and perhaps hampering his performance longer than if he had just sat out a couple games.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:00 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:If he got himself ejected on purpose to keep the streak going, then I would consider that selfish. I don't think playing every game is that great of an idea though. I think he would have gotten more out of his career if he had rehabbed his injuries rather than playing hurt and perhaps hampering his performance longer than if he had just sat out a couple games.


Yeah and if he played longer then some people would probably come up with some other reason to bitch about. Just the way it is with people I guess.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:01 pm

I'd have to say it's to a major degree Yoda. I completely agree that he must have been doing something to keep himself in extraordinary shape and undoubtedly played through nagging injuries. Playing that many games, however, without acquiring some kind of injury is as much a product of luck than it is of anything else though.

It is most certainly not a skill though. It can't be because you have complete control over your skills and abilities....that's what separates good from great players. Considering all of the advances made in nutrition and exercise since Ripken has retired, there would undoubtedly be at least one player who would be able to sustain a longer streak if there was no luck involved.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:04 pm

I think the streak is an amazing feat but I do not think it's something that was of great importance to his team. I don't think Ripken playing 162 games every year is something that, in the grand scheme of things, really helped the Orioles a whole hell of a lot.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:40 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:I'd have to say it's to a major degree Yoda. I completely agree that he must have been doing something to keep himself in extraordinary shape and undoubtedly played through nagging injuries. Playing that many games, however, without acquiring some kind of injury is as much a product of luck than it is of anything else though.

It is most certainly not a skill though. It can't be because you have complete control over your skills and abilities....that's what separates good from great players. Considering all of the advances made in nutrition and exercise since Ripken has retired, there would undoubtedly be at least one player who would be able to sustain a longer streak if there was no luck involved.


No one has complete control over anything. No one is saying there's NO luck involved. Everyone agrees that BA, HRs, and other areas of performance are clearly skills. Yet there's lots of variation from year to year, in past because luck plays a role.

It's luck and skill. That's true about performance. And it's true about health.

Ripken retired less than a decade ago. There have not even been enough games played to break the record. You seem to believe that if a record was based purely on skill, it would inevitably be broken in less than a decade because of advances in nutrition and exercise. And you see this as evidence that Ripken's record is more based in luck. Beamon's long jump record lasted more than two decades. Mike Powell's record since then is approaching a two decade mark. There are many records that seem to be based even more on pure skill than Ripken's that have lasted for a LONG time. There's little connection I would say between length of a record and luck/skill of the performance.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:41 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:I think the streak is an amazing feat but I do not think it's something that was of great importance to his team. I don't think Ripken playing 162 games every year is something that, in the grand scheme of things, really helped the Orioles a whole hell of a lot.


You should look at who our backup shortstops were during those years! :~(
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby AquaMan2342 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:53 pm

The fact that nobody has been able to sustain a streak of any kind is easily an indicator that a streak of that kind is more luck than anything else. What makes Ripken so special that he was able to escape injury throughout his entire career? Are we equating his streak to him being in better shape than any player in baseball history? You can't. It's pure luck that he was able to play that many games in a row without sustaining an injury that would keep him out of one game. It's asinine to think any other way.
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Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:05 pm

AquaMan2342 wrote:The fact that nobody has been able to sustain a streak of any kind is easily an indicator that a streak of that kind is more luck than anything else. What makes Ripken so special that he was able to escape injury throughout his entire career? Are we equating his streak to him being in better shape than any player in baseball history? You can't. It's pure luck that he was able to play that many games in a row without sustaining an injury that would keep him out of one game. It's asinine to think any other way.


The fact that nobody has been able to sustain a streak of any kind is easily an indicator that Dimaggio's streak is more luck than anything else. What makes Joe so special that he was able to get a hit through 56 straight games? Are we equating his streak to him being a better hitter than any other player in baseball history? You can't. It's pure luck that he was able to get a hit that many games in a row. It's asinine to think any other way.

There's a reason why the hit streak record is not held by Eddie Brinkman. It takes some skill to achieve that. It also takes some luck. It's neither pure skill or pure luck.

Similarly, there's a reason why the game streak is not held by JD Drew. It takes some skill to achieve that. It also takes some luck. It's neither pure skill or pure luck.

FWIW, there are 5 other guys, besides Gehrig, who have game streaks over 1,000 games
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