Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great? - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby IVIisfits138 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:49 pm

jake_harv88 wrote:Huh? Cal Ripken has better stats in almost every single category. :-?

Besides you say its a lucky record, but no one will ever come close to it. There's no denying that...


I never said that Alan Trammell was better than Ripken, nor am I even implying that argument. Ripken is obviously the better player but I just don't feel its that far off. It's not a 98% to 18% Hall of Fame voting difference in my opinion.
I agree that no one will ever come close to it, nor do I believe any franchise would want their players to play that many games in a row.
And it is in fact the luckiest record in sports because even if Ripken had the best physical conditioning ever, am I supposed to believe that he did not put himself at risk at all times even off the field? A car accident, home improvement accident, sneezing and throwing out your back, getting drunk and tripping on your coffee table, etc. Any of those things could have happened and jeopardized his streak.

Yoda wrote:Yeah not to mention that his performance dwarfed over the other SS during his era.

Some of his statistics dwarf Trammells, but as a whole I just don't see how he is leaps and bounds of a better player. Trammell has a career average of 5.3 RC/Game while Ripken has 5.2
Again, I am not saying Alan Trammell is better than Ripken. Ripken just seems to get more credit as a baseball players because of a lucky record.
Do Work
IVIisfits138
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 325
Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: New Jersey

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Yoda » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:01 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:lucky record.


Define luck. Staying healthy is a skill and he was the most durable athlete in history of the game while being a plus player at his position.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby j24jags » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:13 pm

IVIisfits138 wrote:Some of his statistics dwarf Trammells, but as a whole I just don't see how he is leaps and bounds of a better player. Trammell has a career average of 5.3 RC/Game while Ripken has 5.2
Again, I am not saying Alan Trammell is better than Ripken. Ripken just seems to get more credit as a baseball players because of a lucky record.

In stats 101 you learn that statistics are the easiest way to back up a lie. There are so many statistics that no matter who you compare (even Jamie Moyer vs Johan Santana) you can find some "meaningful" stats to show one player is better than the other.

Moyer has more CG/Gs than Johan. Moyer has more SHO/IPs than Johan. Any two players, anyway you spin it, you can show one player is "better" than the other.

The fact is that in the vast majority of categories, Ripken blows Trammel away...
Image
j24jags
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 10340
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby Ender » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:26 pm

Some of his statistics dwarf Trammells, but as a whole I just don't see how he is leaps and bounds of a better player. Trammell has a career average of 5.3 RC/Game while Ripken has 5.2


Yeah but this is because he barely played after he turned 30. You are comparing Trammell's mostly peak years to Ripkens entire career.

Ripken had 5.0 RC/G or more 8 of his first 10 seasons. He had 5.0 RC/G or more only 3 of his last 10. Ripken had 5791 PAs after the age of 30.

Trammell had 2594 PA after the age of 30. You are basically trying to penalize Ripken for playing a lot past his prime years by trying to do a rate comparison and ignoring the counting part.

If Pujols were to retire today his final stat line will be MUCH better than when he actually retires, it wouldn't make him a better player for skipping his age 30+ seasons. Just one that retired too early.
Ender
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 7733
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby RAmst23 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:29 pm

If two players have nearly identical rate stats, but one played about 800 more games than the other, than I'm going with the longevity guy.

From 1982 to 1991 Ripken didn't have an OPS+ of less than 105, winning ROY and 2 MVP awards. I don't think Ripken is one of the all time greatest, but he had a great peak and certainly has longevity. Not sure what more you would ask from a HOFer.
...Boston papers now and then suffer a sharp flurry of arithmetic on this score; indeed, for Williams to have distributed all his hits so they did nobody else any good would constitute a feat of placement unparalleled in the annals of selfishness. -Updike
RAmst23
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1986
(Past Year: 3)
Joined: 6 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Sitting on the steps of Busch Stadium

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:38 pm

RAmst23 wrote:If two players have nearly identical rate stats, but one played about 800 more games than the other, than I'm going with the longevity guy.

From 1982 to 1991 Ripken didn't have an OPS+ of less than 105, winning ROY and 2 MVP awards. I don't think Ripken is one of the all time greatest, but he had a great peak and certainly has longevity. Not sure what more you would ask from a HOFer.


And, he played the most difficult defensive position at an extremely high rate. I think one of the issues missed here is that Trammel was an outstanding player, a borderline HoFamer himself, who has never gotten the respect he deserved.

Ripken ranks 2nd among all ss to ever play the game in win shares. Pick pretty much any measure you want and he ranks in the top 10 of all ss to ever player the game.

What's not to like?
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to chase it."
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby jlm53089 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:18 am

Didn't Cal Ripken Jr. hit a home run in his last All Star game?

Yea, he is better, but only because of that otherwise Alan Trammel is better.
Image
jlm53089
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 3058
(Past Year: 3)
Joined: 6 Feb 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Tampa, praying for a new stadium.

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby auclairkeithbc » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:28 am

The title of this thread should be "Why Cal Ripken Jr. is consider great."

I would have also accepted "Why Alan Trammell is very underappreciated."
i'm the guy that puts the "nip" in omnipotent...
auclairkeithbc
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 3181
Joined: 5 Nov 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby ukrneal » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:46 am

Trammel was a very good player. I don't think anyone is denying that. But we do not have to bring Ripkin down to bring Trammel up. I think one thing you need to keep in mind was that Ripkin was a HR hitter in his position. He pre-dates the following generation where a SS hitting 20+ or 30+ HR was common. look at others who play the position when he does - you'll find the likes of Templeton, Smith, Larkin, etc. Most of them are small guys who can run. Some had power: Trammel hit 20+ twice, Larkin 30+ once, etc. But there is no other SS from the 80's and early 90's that had 20+ HR year in and year out (and for multiple years). In addition, Ripkin still hit lots of doubles too.

So when we compare him against that group, he stands out. He was driving in runs at a position that for years didn't really have anyone like that.

Trammel's achilles heal, in my opinion, was his consistency. He'd have a great year and follow it with a lousy one.

Keep in mind there are three things that get you in to the HOF (simplifying things): peak, longevity, and hardware. If you don't have one, you need the others. Trammel didn't really have longevity (too many injuries) and he doesn't really have peak to compensate (liek a Kiner or Koufax). He certainly doesn't have the hardware.
ukrneal
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2322
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Why is Cal Ripken Jr. considered great?

Postby mkultra » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:34 am

IVIisfits138 wrote:I believe he is a really good player, but the reason people consider him "great" is because he holds probably the luckiest record in sports.


This statement, IMO, embodies a common failing of fantasy managers. HEALTH IS A SKILL. But because it's not a stat on a spreadsheet, so many people pretend like it doesn't matter.
mkultra
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1339
(Past Year: 41)
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Brooklyn, NY

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Aug. 28
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Chi Cubs at Cincinnati
(12:35 pm)
NY Yankees at Detroit
(1:08 pm)
Colorado at San Francisco
(3:45 pm)
Tampa Bay at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Atlanta at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
Cleveland at Chi White Sox
(8:10 pm)
Texas at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Minnesota at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Oakland at LA Angels
(10:05 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact