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Keeper league question

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Keeper league question

Postby TheRock » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:43 pm

I'm not really the commish of this league, just looking or some input on a situation we have.

This is a 3rd year keeper league, we keep 4 players every year. Someone raised the question of not keeping that many. I.e. if your team sucks, can you only keep 2 or 3 and pick a round or two earlier than everyone else?

Clearly people without great keepers like the idea, one team could dump his whole roster and come out ahead. Those with strong keepers are objecting that it rewards those with weaker keepers. Plus it means slimmer pickings when it comes their turn to draft.

Any thoughts? I'm curious how other leagues handle this.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Tenacious D-Store » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:56 pm

I was in a league where they decided to do that in year 3 despite my cries that it was a bad idea, and sure enough all hell broke less just as I said it would. Look at it this way. You've had some tough luck in your league finishing dead last and are in a rebuilding mode, so you are going to keep the max players because you have some young talent that just haven't fully developed yet. 10 other teams decide to keep fewer than the max number of players. So as the worst team in the league you now get the 10th overall pick in the league. It just doesn't work.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Matthias » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:10 pm

I don't really like it but I don't think it's offensive with a couple of caveats.

    1) The extra picks would have to be from players who were dumped off of other teams; no picking of rookies who nobody else had a chance at yet.
    2) This isn't really necessary, but I think it would take the sting out a little for people; limit these fill-in picks to 1 per round. So if you can keep 4 and someone to decided to keep 3, then do their pre-selection keeper pick and then everyone else drafts. But if they only kept 2, they still only do their 1 pre-selection pick, everyone does their 1st round, and then they take their second pre-selection pick as a sandwich pick.
But I could support it even without the #2 tweak. Here's the reasoning.

The guy who thought ahead and drafted well and everything, he keeps his top 4 guys. Now if someone doesn't plan so well they only keep 2. Their third-best guy would be the first player's fifth-best guy. So it's better than them not getting those picks at all but I don't think they're really damaging the process.

The only real bad incentive this creates, as I see it, is that it rewards people for consolidating talent versus having a good core. Ideally you would want to have the #1 and #2 overall guys as your keepers so that you could pick off the #44 overall and #48 overall from the guy who just managed to accumulate 6-7 players who should've been drafted in the first 4 rounds. In a small sense, you're penalizing that guy for having a deeper quality team. But I don't think this is a real deal-breaker.

Short and sweet: it's not great but it's not terrible. Especially if you limit these picks to 1/round, I don't see it as a huge problem and might keep some people interested who otherwise feel defeated.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Eagle Baseball » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:45 pm

My keeper league does this and I think it is a great idea. In our league you can keep up to 5. If you keep less than you take part in a supplemental draft prior to the main darft so everyone has 5 keepers when the draft starts. I think it helps teams at the bottom because chances are their # 4 or 5 guy is not is good as the best teams #6 or 7 guy. I allows teams to become a bit more competitive easier. If you don't do something like this I think your league turnover will rise. Yeah the best teams may complain but they are still going to have the best keepers going into the draft.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Kimbos Beard » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:00 pm

I am with Eagle on this. I think its a good idea. I think its important to try to keep as many teams competitive as possible especially in a keeper league.

If you have been finishing at the bottom of a keeper league for 2 years and your best keeper is barely as good as the top teams worst keeper, how long are you going to stay interested in this league. How fun is it going into the year knowing you are going to finish last.

Doing this does not bring all the teams back to even but it makes it at least a little more competitive. Sometimes its better to look at the bigger picture of the league.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Matthias » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:51 am

Kimbos Beard wrote:If you have been finishing at the bottom of a keeper league for 2 years and your best keeper is barely as good as the top teams worst keeper, how long are you going to stay interested in this league. How fun is it going into the year knowing you are going to finish last.

Doing this does not bring all the teams back to even but it makes it at least a little more competitive. Sometimes its better to look at the bigger picture of the league.

This is true, but it doesn't address the situation where someone keeps 2 or 3.

If one guy's keepers are: A-Rod, Reyes, and Pujols but then he has garbage after that and then another player has Fielder, Kinsler, Ichiro, Crawford, and Carlos Lee, then it doesn't make the league more fair to let the first guy take one of the guys that the second guy is going to drop.

Maybe an alternative to this is to say that if someone wants to choose from other team's discards, they have to do an all-or-nothing proposition. You can keep 4 or you can keep 0 but you can't keep 1, 2, or 3. Then you know that if someone is sifting through the garbage heap, they really do need a leg up.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby TheRock » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:01 am

Matthias wrote:If one guy's keepers are: A-Rod, Reyes, and Pujols but then he has garbage after that and then another player has Fielder, Kinsler, Ichiro, Crawford, and Carlos Lee, then it doesn't make the league more fair to let the first guy take one of the guys that the second guy is going to drop.

Maybe an alternative to this is to say that if someone wants to choose from other team's discards, they have to do an all-or-nothing proposition. You can keep 4 or you can keep 0 but you can't keep 1, 2, or 3. Then you know that if someone is sifting through the garbage heap, they really do need a leg up.


And this is really the debate. If a team sucks maybe starting completely over needs to be an option. But how do we allow it in that case but not let it get abused? We already draft in reverse order of finish to give the weaker teams a leg up. Now if one of the better teams only keeps 3, they bump up to picking first because they're a round earlier. So then other teams need to consider dropping one more keeper to keep their spot in order. Seems a mess. I'm really leaning toward leaving it as is.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Matthias » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:11 am

TheRock wrote:
Matthias wrote:If one guy's keepers are: A-Rod, Reyes, and Pujols but then he has garbage after that and then another player has Fielder, Kinsler, Ichiro, Crawford, and Carlos Lee, then it doesn't make the league more fair to let the first guy take one of the guys that the second guy is going to drop.

Maybe an alternative to this is to say that if someone wants to choose from other team's discards, they have to do an all-or-nothing proposition. You can keep 4 or you can keep 0 but you can't keep 1, 2, or 3. Then you know that if someone is sifting through the garbage heap, they really do need a leg up.

And this is really the debate. If a team sucks maybe starting completely over needs to be an option. But how do we allow it in that case but not let it get abused? We already draft in reverse order of finish to give the weaker teams a leg up. Now if one of the better teams only keeps 3, they bump up to picking first because they're a round earlier. So then other teams need to consider dropping one more keeper to keep their spot in order. Seems a mess. I'm really leaning toward leaving it as is.

If you mandate that the only way you can do it is if you drop all of your keepers (and don't redraft any of them in this special left-overs draft) I don't see how it could get abused. There's very little way to game the system when you're only picking through other people's leftovers.

I also don't see it as being logically necessary to say that if you let one team drop all of their keepers you have to give other teams the options to drop 1 or 2.... it's a different thing.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby Kimbos Beard » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:11 pm

Matthias wrote:This is true, but it doesn't address the situation where someone keeps 2 or 3.

If one guy's keepers are: A-Rod, Reyes, and Pujols but then he has garbage after that and then another player has Fielder, Kinsler, Ichiro, Crawford, and Carlos Lee, then it doesn't make the league more fair to let the first guy take one of the guys that the second guy is going to drop.


I see your point and its fair. I also would agree with you if they were keeping more players but in this league there are only 4 keepers. I guess the other thing we need to know is how many teams are in this league? I am going to assume that its a 10 or 12 team league

If its a ten team league or 12 team league I really don't think it's unfair. Take your example for instance. In a 10/12 team league even with A-Rod/Reyes/Pujols in order to win you need some other big names. Lets say for arguments sake your next best player is Markakis, which I think is fair.
Team B decides that they have to throw back Crawford. Is it really worth it for the first team to dump Markakis to take Crawford?

I see your point, but when you are only keeping 4, the elite teams should easily find 4 players who are good enough to keep, that its not worth their time to go cherry picking other teams leftovers.
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Re: Keeper league question

Postby baizboll » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:39 pm

Keeping a lesser number of players than the maximum is more suited to a salary cap league than a draft league. Allowing a bad team to have more dollars to spend by keeping fewer players is advantageous. But when it's a draft league and you are only keeping 4 players, that only takes 48 players out of the pool so you might think the worst team has some decent pickins. However, giving the worst team the 1st and 24th pick may not help him as much as one would hope. Maybe do a straight draft for 4 rounds (last place gets picks 1, 13, 25, 37), then go to a snake draft for the balance of the rounds. It's a tough question to tackle. :-?
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