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Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby Madison » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:04 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:I don't understand where the discrepancy is. They want stricter guidelines, they're asking producers to follow the stricter guidelines voluntarily, if they don't do it on their own, they will write the guidelines into law. It basically sounds like they are trying to put the guidelines into effect without taking the time/energy/money of actually making them policy.

..and so there is nothing voluntary about this. The end result is X. For something to be volutary, the potential outcome must include something other than X.

The end result must be X but the means through which they attain X can be the individual company's method A, B, or C. Any of A, B, or C could be more cost-effective, less time consuming, and/or less limiting than government's method D.


And it would make the meat industry look good in the process if they do it themselves, rather than the government having to "force" a law in that the meat industry has no choice but to follow.

So I don't really see anything that made me blink. :-?
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby RugbyD » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:06 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:I don't understand where the discrepancy is. They want stricter guidelines, they're asking producers to follow the stricter guidelines voluntarily, if they don't do it on their own, they will write the guidelines into law. It basically sounds like they are trying to put the guidelines into effect without taking the time/energy/money of actually making them policy.

..and so there is nothing voluntary about this. The end result is X. For something to be volutary, the potential outcome must include something other than X.

The end result must be X but the means through which they attain X can be the individual company's method A, B, or C. Any of A, B, or C could be more cost-effective, less time consuming, and/or less limiting than government's method D.

The guidelines are X, not the process. Process is irrelevant. The govt is flat out saying "You have a choice to do X or to do X, but if you should so choose, you can also do X, but its all up to you to pick". People who say that with a straight face are better relegated to straightjackets, unless of course the are a govt stooge.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby RugbyD » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:12 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Right. I guess I just don't understand what makes this unique, or why it stands out. Officials saying "we want X. Do it 'voluntarily' on your terms, or you're going to have to do it on our terms" happens at every level of government. I follow the Ag Dept. fairly closely, and similar "requests" certainly happend under Schaffer, and I would assume under every Ag Secretary.

You don't find anything wrong with blatant dishonesty like this? I'm not saying it's unique, it's just the principle...

I guess if you're hung up on the dictionary definition of "voluntary" I guess you could call it dishonesty but I don't see any hidden agenda or anything here. Probably not the best choice of words, but it all depends on how you read it (or how you want to read it). Besides, there's no need to vilify them for a single word when it's pretty clear what the message is.

Hung up on? I could understand if this were shades of grey, but this is nothing short of a boldfaced black&white lie, and it takes a true coward and fraud to say it only b/c he knows he's got the govt authority of threatened violence to make it passable. I don't understand why people aren't bothered by this.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby knapplc » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:14 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:You don't find anything wrong with blatant dishonesty like this? I'm not saying it's unique, it's just the principle...

I guess if you're hung up on the dictionary definition of "voluntary" I guess you could call it dishonesty but I don't see any hidden agenda or anything here. Probably not the best choice of words, but it all depends on how you read it (or how you want to read it). Besides, there's no need to vilify them for a single word when it's pretty clear what the message is.

Hung up on? I could understand if this were shades of grey, but this is nothing short of a boldfaced black&white lie, and it takes a true coward and fraud to say it only b/c he knows he's got the govt authority of threatened violence to make it passable. I don't understand why people aren't bothered by this.

You get really bothered when people say things like, "It's raining cats and dogs" when it's really only rain, don't you?
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby RugbyD » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:18 pm

knapplc wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:I guess if you're hung up on the dictionary definition of "voluntary" I guess you could call it dishonesty but I don't see any hidden agenda or anything here. Probably not the best choice of words, but it all depends on how you read it (or how you want to read it). Besides, there's no need to vilify them for a single word when it's pretty clear what the message is.

Hung up on? I could understand if this were shades of grey, but this is nothing short of a boldfaced black&white lie, and it takes a true coward and fraud to say it only b/c he knows he's got the govt authority of threatened violence to make it passable. I don't understand why people aren't bothered by this.

You get really bothered when people say things like, "It's raining cats and dogs" when it's really only rain, don't you?

There's an infinite gap between what I'm talking about and simple figures of speech.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:20 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:..and so there is nothing voluntary about this. The end result is X. For something to be volutary, the potential outcome must include something other than X.

The end result must be X but the means through which they attain X can be the individual company's method A, B, or C. Any of A, B, or C could be more cost-effective, less time consuming, and/or less limiting than government's method D.

The guidelines are X, not the process. Process is irrelevant. The govt is flat out saying "You have a choice to do X or to do X, but if you should so choose, you can also do X, but its all up to you to pick". People who say that with a straight face are better relegated to straightjackets, unless of course the are a govt stooge.

Actually, as I understand it, the administration hasn't written out specific guidelines for the meat industry to follow, they've just thrown out the vague term "stricter" which allows them some leeway and freedom of interpretation in regards to exactly what the guidelines are. Chances are pretty high that if the meat industry doesn't comply with enacting stricter regulations, the government's version will be more limiting and tough to follow. Of course the government is putting pressure on the meat industry, but how else are they supposed to do it? This is a lot gentler than passing a law without giving them a chance first, if you ask me.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:23 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:You don't find anything wrong with blatant dishonesty like this? I'm not saying it's unique, it's just the principle...

I guess if you're hung up on the dictionary definition of "voluntary" I guess you could call it dishonesty but I don't see any hidden agenda or anything here. Probably not the best choice of words, but it all depends on how you read it (or how you want to read it). Besides, there's no need to vilify them for a single word when it's pretty clear what the message is.

Hung up on? I could understand if this were shades of grey, but this is nothing short of a boldfaced black&white lie, and it takes a true coward and fraud to say it only b/c he knows he's got the govt authority of threatened violence to make it passable. I don't understand why people aren't bothered by this.

Where's the lie? I see no deception in anything other than typical political office spin on a word that could be open to wide interpretation. The government is putting their plan on the table, and unless they deviate from that plan later on, they're telling the truth. Get off that one word and approach the whole message.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby knapplc » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:34 pm

RugbyD wrote:There's an infinite gap between what I'm talking about and simple figures of speech.

You're welcome to your opinion, but bottom line, this is a windmill at which you're tilting. Nothing more.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby RugbyD » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:41 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:The end result must be X but the means through which they attain X can be the individual company's method A, B, or C. Any of A, B, or C could be more cost-effective, less time consuming, and/or less limiting than government's method D.

The guidelines are X, not the process. Process is irrelevant. The govt is flat out saying "You have a choice to do X or to do X, but if you should so choose, you can also do X, but its all up to you to pick". People who say that with a straight face are better relegated to straightjackets, unless of course the are a govt stooge.

Actually, as I understand it, the administration hasn't written out specific guidelines for the meat industry to follow, they've just thrown out the vague term "stricter" which allows them some leeway and freedom of interpretation in regards to exactly what the guidelines are. Chances are pretty high that if the meat industry doesn't comply with enacting stricter regulations, the government's version will be more limiting and tough to follow. Of course the government is putting pressure on the meat industry, but how else are they supposed to do it? This is a lot gentler than passing a law without giving them a chance first, if you ask me.

The guidelines are written. X will be a known quantity when submitted to the industry as guidelines. Nothing about this requires a new law. The law was passed in last year's farm bill that delegated interpretation to the Ag Dept.
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Re: Obama Administration Fails Literacy Test

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:49 pm

One year ago, one president ago, one administration ago, one political party ago. Perhaps I wasn't clear. The new guidelines haven't been written yet, pertaining to providing more complete information on the meat being sold, which is what this administration is going at.

I still see no lie.
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