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Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:03 pm

player and his compensation haven't been linked yet because your roster is not yet fixed.

I disagree because I believe the player and compensation were fixed at last years draft.

Anyway lets look at this example in a 12 team league. Hanley owner Team A(who finished last and would have #1 pick if he does not keep Hanley) trades Hanley to team B(who finished 2nd to last and would have the 2nd pick if he did not keep his first round keeper) for team B's 2nd & 3td round picks. Now Team A does not keep a player so he has a first round pick. Team B still has his first round pick because he is not keeping a player other than Hanley who he aquired by trading his picks in rounds 2 & 3. So far this seems logical if we accept the trade being discussed in this thread.

So now we move to this years draft and no owner keeps a first rounder (other than Team B but they still have their 1st round pick). Team C who won the league last year and has pick #1.12. He in theory should be able to draft the player he has ranked #12. But by allowing Hanley to be traded and neither of the two owners involved in the trade giving up a 1st round pick you have diminished the value of team C's pick to the 13th ranked player not the 12th ranked player. That is why the player needs to be linked to the first round pick and why Player A in the example in this thread should not have been able to trade Santana & a 1st round pick.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:08 pm

Team A still owned Pujols, Santana, and the eighth overall pick.

I agree with the commish on this. Team A did not own Pujols, Santana and the 8th pick. He owned Pujols & Santana OR Pujols and the 8th pick.

Look at my Hanley example above to see how allowing him to own both Santana and the 8th pick devalues the other managers first round picks. IMO that is not fair or valid.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:44 pm

Eagle Baseball wrote:Anyway lets look at this example in a 12 team league. Hanley owner Team A(who finished last and would have #1 pick if he does not keep Hanley) trades Hanley to team B(who finished 2nd to last and would have the 2nd pick if he did not keep his first round keeper) for team B's 2nd & 3td round picks. Now Team A does not keep a player so he has a first round pick. Team B still has his first round pick because he is not keeping a player other than Hanley who he aquired by trading his picks in rounds 2 & 3. So far this seems logical if we accept the trade being discussed in this thread.


This is the difference in opinion here. In your post, you say that Team B would still have his original first round pick AND Hanley Ramirez.

Why?

My feeling is that Team B should now be without picks in rounds 1-3. He would be forking over his original first round pick for the right to keep Ramirez.

If the player and compensation were fixed together at last year's draft, then Team A should not have been allowed to trade for Santana (or Pujols, whichever he did trade for) in the middle of the season by your reasoning. Since both of those players have a first round keeper value associated with them, we know one was traded for. Is that acceptable? If so, would it then be acceptable for Team A to trade one of those players later in the season? Again, if so, why is that acceptable but it is not acceptable for the deal to be made in the offseason, prior to roster cutdowns?

You claim that the player and the compensation were fixed together at last year's draft. I disagree. I believe that they are separate properties, and at the keeper deadline, the owner must make a choice as to which of these properties he would like to own.

One question Eagle, are you under the impression that in the actual OP's deal, Team A will now have the first overall pick, and Team B will be able to keep Santana AND pick at the #8 position? Because from my understanding, that #8 pick is going to be forfeited at the keeper cutdown date. Essentially, by packaging them together in the deal, these teams have kept that pick and Santana linked, which would seem to satisfy your biggest objection.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:24 pm

RDD15 wrote:
Eagle Baseball wrote:Anyway lets look at this example in a 12 team league. Hanley owner Team A(who finished last and would have #1 pick if he does not keep Hanley) trades Hanley to team B(who finished 2nd to last and would have the 2nd pick if he did not keep his first round keeper) for team B's 2nd & 3td round picks. Now Team A does not keep a player so he has a first round pick. Team B still has his first round pick because he is not keeping a player other than Hanley who he aquired by trading his picks in rounds 2 & 3. So far this seems logical if we accept the trade being discussed in this thread.


This is the difference in opinion here. In your post, you say that Team B would still have his original first round pick AND Hanley Ramirez.

Why?

My feeling is that Team B should now be without picks in rounds 1-3. He would be forking over his original first round pick for the right to keep Ramirez.

I agree with you. He should forfeit his original first round pick for the right to keep Hanley. Now let's look below to see how that fits into this thread and Santana.

If the player and compensation were fixed together at last year's draft, then Team A should not have been allowed to trade for Santana (or Pujols, whichever he did trade for) in the middle of the season by your reasoning. Since both of those players have a first round keeper value associated with them, we know one was traded for. Is that acceptable? If so, would it then be acceptable for Team A to trade one of those players later in the season? Again, if so, why is that acceptable but it is not acceptable for the deal to be made in the offseason, prior to roster cutdowns?

You claim that the player and the compensation were fixed together at last year's draft. I disagree. I believe that they are separate properties, and at the keeper deadline, the owner must make a choice as to which of these properties he would like to own.

But that is not what happened in the OP. In order for Player B to keep Santana he would need to forfeit his original first round pick just like you said above in response to my Hanley example. Except in the case we are talking about Player B's original first round pick was the #1 pick which was traded to Player A. So how can Player A have the #1 pick if Player B forfeited the #1 pick in order to keep Santana?

One question Eagle, are you under the impression that in the actual OP's deal, Team A will now have the first overall pick, and Team B will be able to keep Santana AND pick at the #8 position? Because from my understanding, that #8 pick is going to be forfeited at the keeper cutdown date. Essentially, by packaging them together in the deal, these teams have kept that pick and Santana linked, which would seem to satisfy your biggest objection.


No my objection is that Player A can not trade Both Santana & the 8th pick because he if he kept Santana himself he would not be able to use or trade the #8 pick so I don't see how he can trade them both.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:39 pm

He can trade them both because he has not been forced by the keeper deadline to give either of them up yet. He is the proud owner of both of those assets until the keeper deadline forces otherwise.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby HitmanHart » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:13 pm

RDD15 wrote:He can trade them both because he has not been forced by the keeper deadline to give either of them up yet. He is the proud owner of both of those assets until the keeper deadline forces otherwise.


This is exactly the point. There is nothing wrong with the trade at all because until keepers are set, Team A is the rightful owner of his entire roster from last year. Its really not that complicated at all.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby BoBtheMule » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:15 pm

Eagle Baseball wrote: player and his compensation haven't been linked yet because your roster is not yet fixed.

I disagree because I believe the player and compensation were fixed at last years draft.


They can't be fixed until the keepers are set and finalized. Until the keepers are set, the two entities aren't linked. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to trade any keepers, at any point.

As for your Hanley example... he was denoted to have a first round value so no matter the trade, his new team would have to link him to that value at the keeper deadline if he wished to keep him on the roster.

You're overcomplicating things.

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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby pacotaco27 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:03 am

I am actually in the league where this question came up. This is the second year for the league and the first year for keepers. The way the rules were written, nothing was specified as far trading picks and keepers. The rules stated how draft position was determined but didn't state whether or not picks belong to a person before or after keepers are set. This has now been voted on and decided. I took the opposite view of Mike.

The rule now states that an owner can not trade a pick in a round where he keeps a player, including swapping picks in a round.

The reason I voted against the trade was that I believed in the trade in question one of the players (not Mike) was giving up nothing and getting value in return. The player I'm talking about had Chase Utley (a 1st round pick) and was swapping his first round pick to get Johan Santana (a first round pick). He was obviously keeping Utley and Santana, and would thus be giving up his first and second round picks to keep them. Since he was giving up his first round pick anyway, he essentially gave up something that had zero value to him and received Johan Santana in return. If he didn't have two first round keepers I would not have been against the trade, but he was clearly going to keep Santana and Utley.

The other reason I didn't agree with it was because allowing it would also allow a situtation like this situation. Assume I have the last pick in the draft and player A has the first pick in the draft. We do a serpentine draft in our league, so player A has the first pick in all odd numbered rounds and I have the first pick in all even numbered rounds. If I was keeping players in rounds 2,4,6,8, and 10 and player A was keeping players in rounds 3,5,7,9, and 11 the rules as they were would not have prevented us from simply swapping picks in rounds 2-11 so we got the first pick in every round where we didn't have a keeper. In this situation, we would both be giving up absolutely nothing in value and moving up 11 spots in five different rounds.

The final vote on this was either 9-3 or 8-4 in favor of the rule stating that players can not be kept in a round where an owner trades a pick.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:49 am

pacotaco27 wrote:The player had Chase Utley (a 1st round pick) and was swapping his first round pick to get Johan Santana (a first round pick). He was obviously keeping Utley and Santana, and would thus be giving up his first and second round picks to keep them.


There was your problem. A first round pick should have been forfeited for each of those keepers. If the owner had both Santana and Utley, and they both were first round picks, then that owner would need 2 first round picks to keep them both, not a first and second round pick. The trade itself was fine. The problem is that you would apparently have allowed the owner in question to forfeit the wrong picks to keep these two players.

The rule now states that an owner can not trade a pick in a round where he keeps a player, including swapping picks in a round.


There is a problem with this. Say I make a trade in November where I acquire an extra 4th round pick. Come February when keeper day rolls around, I keep Curtis Granderson whom is worth a 4th rounder. According to the rule as it is written, even though I have two fourth round picks, and only have to surrender one for Granderson, I am still not allowed to trade the other pick. Also, have you specified in the case where an owner has 2 picks in a round (where one was acquired via trade), which of those two picks is forfeited for the keeper?
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby unreal2399 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:32 pm

this trade is close to fair, assuming team B has a sub-par round one keeper on his team prior to the trade.
if he does, then he now gives himself santana to keep (using the 8th overall pick acquired in the trade)

team A benifits by releasing pujols and redrafting him 1st overall....team A makes out tremendously (assuming he has worthwhile keepers during later rounds) while team B improves somewhat less.

if team B could target another potential keeper on his team and have team A add that round draft pick to the deal then this
trade becomes very even.
.
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