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Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:57 pm

Team A gains the #1 pick in the draft. Regardless of how he uses it, that is what he gains, and it is a legit gain.

Team B gains certainty that he gets the player that he wants for his first round pick. A bit more intangible, but a gain nonetheless. Perhaps Team A is not a fan of keeping starting pitchers (like me). Say his roster looks like:

Pujols
Kinsler
Rollins
Longoria
Granderson
Santana


Team B worries that the player cut could be Granderson. So by making this deal Team B assures that he gets a top-notch player in Santana, and the guy that he really wants, rather than maybe Granderson who Team B is not super high on for whatever reason.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby mike7244 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:47 pm

Interestingly enough, Team A's roster is very similar to what RDD said:

Currently it includes these players:

Pujols- 1st (round drafted)
Rollins- 1st
Santana- 1st
Kinsler-5th
McCann-6th
Hamels- 7th
Bruce- 15th
Ethier- Free Agent

So by trading Santana for the 1st overall pick, and Rollins for draft picks, Team A's roster eventually looks like this:

Kinsler
McCann
Hamels
Bruce
Ethier

With the first overall pick Team A could redraft Pujols, because he is not keeping any other first rounders. He would also have all draft picks up to the 5th round, a luxury no other team in the league would have. However, this trade was sadly vetoed in our league with the following explanation: "Much of the disagreement with the trade stems from the confusion over when "keeper" are considered "keepers" and when draft picks are lost. As discussed, there is currently confusion on this in the rules. Until an update rule is provided, please move forward knowing that owners will not be allowed to keep players in rounds where that draft pick has been traded."
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Kimbos Beard » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:07 pm

I had to reread the post but to me its pretty clear that this is a fair move. It's well within the rules and quite smart actually.

Both teams are receiving fair compensation. To me it boils down to trading Santana for the 1st overall pick, I don't see that as unfair at all. I think its more that people wish they would have thought of that first:)
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:42 pm

"Much of the disagreement with the trade stems from the confusion over when "keeper" are considered "keepers" and when draft picks are lost. As discussed, there is currently confusion on this in the rules. Until an update rule is provided, please move forward knowing that owners will not be allowed to keep players in rounds where that draft pick has been traded"

I agree with the commish on this. If Santana is being kept than that owner should have forfeited his 1st round pick in which case he would not have been able to trade it. Many are focused on the owner who is drafting Pujols and that is wrong imo. He is doing nothing wrong. The problem is the owner who received Santana is being credited with 2 first round picks. 1 he is using to keep Santana and the other he traded away.

Look at it this way. Suppose the ARod owner (who drafted ARod in round 1) was to trade his 1st round pick to team E in exchange for team E's 2nd and 4th round picks. Than the Arod owner declared ARod as his 1st round keeper. He would have Arod and also and extra pick in round 2 & 4.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby mike7244 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:14 pm

I understand exactly what you are saying Eagle and I agree that your example would be vetoed. However, in the original trade Team A traded his first round pick (8th overall) to Team B along with Pujols. Therefore, Team B should (IMO) be allowed to keep a first rounder in place of the draft pick he received from Team A. I think the key is that we are trading picks before keepers are determined.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:33 pm

Player A trades:
Johan Santana (drafted in the 1st round last year)
His first round pick (8th overall)

Player B trades:
His first round pick (1st overall)


Player B should have forfeited his first round pick if he was keeping Santana thus he would not have been able to trade it to Player A. If a league lets this go through than they must let my Arod example go through. In the example I quoted above there are 3 first round picks involved between 2 managers. The math does not work.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:51 am

Eagle, I don't get your reasoning.

In your example trade, A-Rod has a first round pick value assigned to him as a keeper. The guy that dealt his first round pick away no longer has a first round pick to pay to keep A-Rod, therefore he cannot keep him.

In the actual trade being discussed, the guy that deals for Santana does give up a first round pick for him, but he GETS ONE BACK. That is the crux of the issue. The new Santana owner still has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana.

I have assumed all along in this thread that these deals are being made before the keeper list has been submitted, so all teams still have a full complement of players and draft picks, and that draft picks have not yet been surrendered in order to keep players.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby Eagle Baseball » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:45 am

In the actual trade being discussed, the guy that deals for Santana does give up a first round pick for him, but he GETS ONE BACK. That is the crux of the issue. The new Santana owner still has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana.

In theory each owner has ONE first round value. They can use it to keep a first round pick or not keep a first round pick and use the first round value to make a pick in this years first round. But regardless each owner gets one and only one first round value.

This is how the trade went according to the OP.

Player A trades:
Johan Santana (drafted in the 1st round last year)
His first round pick (8th overall)

Player B trades:
His first round pick (1st overall)


How can Player A trade two first round values?

The fact that he has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana does not matter. My point is he should not have a first round pick to trade because he is keeping Santana. He forfeits his first round pick (#1 overall) in order to keep Santana. He should not have the 8th pick overall because Player A should not have been allowed to trade 2 first round values.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby BoBtheMule » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:22 pm

Eagle, I'd be willing to bet you're going to law school...

Anyways, if this deal was done before keepers were set (which I think most everyone that replied assumed), there is absolutely no reason it's not legal because the player and his compensation haven't been linked yet because your roster is not yet fixed. After the keepers are set you can view it either how Eagle or Ryan see it, I tend to agree with Ryan's point of view as I feel it's better for the league's offseason activity and provides more interest in trading.

Honestly, I don't really like this sort of keeper compensation unless there are a couple of other provisions... a yearly increase in the cost of keeping a player (making first round keepers moot because no one can keep them) and a way to account for a team that wants to keep two players from the same round.

Marshall

Eagle Baseball wrote:In the actual trade being discussed, the guy that deals for Santana does give up a first round pick for him, but he GETS ONE BACK. That is the crux of the issue. The new Santana owner still has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana.

In theory each owner has ONE first round value. They can use it to keep a first round pick or not keep a first round pick and use the first round value to make a pick in this years first round. But regardless each owner gets one and only one first round value.

This is how the trade went according to the OP.

Player A trades:
Johan Santana (drafted in the 1st round last year)
His first round pick (8th overall)

Player B trades:
His first round pick (1st overall)


How can Player A trade two first round values?

The fact that he has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana does not matter. My point is he should not have a first round pick to trade because he is keeping Santana. He forfeits his first round pick (#1 overall) in order to keep Santana. He should not have the 8th pick overall because Player A should not have been allowed to trade 2 first round values.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:51 pm

Eagle Baseball wrote:In the actual trade being discussed, the guy that deals for Santana does give up a first round pick for him, but he GETS ONE BACK. That is the crux of the issue. The new Santana owner still has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana.

In theory each owner has ONE first round value. They can use it to keep a first round pick or not keep a first round pick and use the first round value to make a pick in this years first round. But regardless each owner gets one and only one first round value.

This is how the trade went according to the OP.

Player A trades:
Johan Santana (drafted in the 1st round last year)
His first round pick (8th overall)

Player B trades:
His first round pick (1st overall)


How can Player A trade two first round values?

The fact that he has a first round pick to give up in order to keep Santana does not matter. My point is he should not have a first round pick to trade because he is keeping Santana. He forfeits his first round pick (#1 overall) in order to keep Santana. He should not have the 8th pick overall because Player A should not have been allowed to trade 2 first round values.


Much as BoBtheMule said, it depends on whether this trade was made before or after the keeper lists were submitted. If before, then Team A had not yet exercised his decision on whether or not to burn that first round pick to keep Santana. So the first round pick was still his. And since cutdowns of the roster were not due yet, he also owned Santana.

Now, once that keeper deadline passed, the pick must be forfeited in order to keep the player, or the player forfeited in order to keep the pick. After that keeper deadline, the owner of Team A only had one first round value, either Santana, or the pick (or Pujols). Since it was made clear by the OP that the owner of Team A still did own Pujols and Santana, it stands to reason that this deal occurred before the keeper deadline, when Team A still owned Pujols, Santana, and the eighth overall pick.
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