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Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

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Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby mike7244 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:18 pm

Long time listener, first time caller. Hope you all can help:

I am entering the 2nd year of a very competitive keeper league. Our league is set up that "Starting in year #2, owners will lose draft picks based on the round that their keepers were drafted in the previous year". Sounds pretty self-explanatory, but it has gotten very confusing with a trade that was made. Keepers do not have to be determined until March 1st. Limit of 5 major league keepers. Contracts for players kept in rounds 1-5 is a maximum of 3 years.

Player A trades:
Johan Santana (drafted in the 1st round last year)
His first round pick (8th overall)

Player B trades:
His first round pick (1st overall)

Here is the controversy:
Player A also has Pujols on his team as a first round pick from last year. Player A would not keep Pujols, but instead redraft him with the first overall pick. The advantage of this is to essentially have 6 keepers instead of 5, plus Pujols contract would restart (thus giving him to Player A for the next 3 years.) Player B would have to give up the first round pick that he has traded for, because he has Santana as a keeper.

The argument from some league members is that this situation could occur in any round in which players may potentially be kept between two owners. What do you guys think? Is this vetoable or not?
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby BoBtheMule » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:07 pm

it really can't happen in any other round b/c a third party could draft the targeted player earlier.

As far as the first round deal involving Johan... it's a smart move by team A and acceptable. If a team is stacked enough that he can pull off this sort of deal... let them do it.

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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:46 pm

This is a very legitimate (and smart) deal for both teams. The deal is well within the rules. There is no reason to block the guy that owns the #1 overall pick from redrafting a guy that he cut. So the fact that he is taking advantage of how the rules are set up is fine, since he is operating within the rules.

The trade itself is not vetoable, since both teams gain from the deal. The only way that it is remotely vetoable is if it is a certainty that at least one team will cut a player that is equal to or better than Johan Santana, because then Team B would be giving up the ability to draft that player with the top pick for Santana. Even then, a veto is a stretch since Santana is one of the very best at his position.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby mike7244 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:13 pm

BoBtheMule-

Here is an example of one of the opposition's arguments:

Using the logic that two teams could trade positions in any round prior to keepers being established, such as being attempted. Remember, these trades are being made before keepers are determined, although most have a good idea who their keepers will be. Therefore, Team 1 has Evan Longoria drafted in round 13 and Team 2 has Cole Hamels drafted in round 8. What is to keep these two owners from trading draft positions in these two rounds? Assume Team 1 is drafting from the 2 spot (or anywhere near the front of a snake) and Team 2 is drafting from the 11th (or somewhere near the end.) Thus Team 1 would have a much better draft spot in round 8, while not really sacrificing anything in round 13 because he knows he will keep Longoria. Team 2 will have the same situation for round 13 while not sacrificing anything for round 8. Would there be anything wrong with this trade? Is this trade different than the original trade proposed?

Again, the trade has caused very heated debate in a very competitive league. Your help is greatly appreciated!!
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:26 pm

Mike, I think that the comparison between the actual deal and your example is apples to oranges.

In the real trade, both teams are gaining something other than cheaping a slightly higher draft pick. Team A gives a later first round pick and a player that he doesn't want to keep, and in return he gains the #1 overall pick. Team B gives up that number one pick basically for Santana.

In the hypothetical example you give, no gain is made outside of the cheaped picks. I would veto that deal in a heartbeat, because on the surface, trading an 8th round pick for a 13th round pick is not an even deal. Problem solved.

I think that if you just step back and look at whether the trade is vetoable or not (regardless of cheaping), you will get the answer as to whether these types of trades should happen or not.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby HitmanHart » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:10 pm

Mike-
Personally, I think Player A and Player B have some serious gripes if this were to get vetoed. Using the rules given: both owners have the right to trade any draft position or pick prior to your keeper deadline. This is crystal clear to me. Player A is giving up clear value to receive the #1 overall pick. Player B is giving up clear value to receive Santana. In my keeper league, the number one draft position is determined by the team that finishes first in the regular season the year prior. This is easily the best position to have, simply for the use of trade bait. All owners in my league fight for this position. It is obvious the owner trading Santana has some studs if he is willing to sacrifice the best pitcher in the game. There is no reason to punish him for it either. The bottom line is the teams can do whatever they wish with these picks until their keepers are determined.

I can understand RDD's concern with the second example given, but I still don't believe it breaks any rules. Is it vetoable? Maybe. Any keeper league guys disagree with the thoughts above?
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby RDD15 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:20 pm

HitmanHart said it well.

Again, the example trade would be completely vetoable because it would be team 1 giving the 8(2) and the 13(11) for Team 2's 8(11) and 13(2). This is about the easiest veto ever, and I am not normally a guy that is in favor of vetoing trades. But with this draft pick trade, it would be obvious that something sketchy is going on.

You would never see an NFL team giving the 1(2) and a 5(31) for the 1(31) and the 5(2).
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby talan37 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:08 pm

I am a little confused here, what is player A getting out of this deal? A 1 year contract reset on Pujols?

This is just a plain weird trade... Player B with the #1 pick is going to get Santana or Pujols because Player A will be forced to drop one or the other, instead he uses his pick to get Santana. While all player A seemingly gets is a 1 year contract reset? Honestly I don't know what to think about this, other than that its very odd and while I don't really know the circumstances this sounds to me like something two buddies cooked up while they were out drinking to both get the better end of your keeper system and give eachother a nice boost.

On strict "value" alone this is pretty unbalanced, your trading a first round player and a 6th round pick for a slightly higher 6th round pick.

This is one of the weirdest trades I have seen here, I would probably ask both of those involved to really explain why they think this is a good trade for them. Unless they gave me some really sketchy answer I don't think there is really any strict reasoning to veto except for the value, but even the value argument is skewed because of the keeper nature of the league.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby BoBtheMule » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:11 pm

RDD15 wrote:HitmanHart said it well.

Again, the example trade would be completely vetoable because it would be team 1 giving the 8(2) and the 13(11) for Team 2's 8(11) and 13(2). This is about the easiest veto ever, and I am not normally a guy that is in favor of vetoing trades. But with this draft pick trade, it would be obvious that something sketchy is going on.

You would never see an NFL team giving the 1(2) and a 5(31) for the 1(31) and the 5(2).


Ryan has it right here... the only way this example trade isn't vetoed is if the second team gives up more compensation... which is then evening the trade.
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Re: Trading 1st round picks in a keeper

Postby HitmanHart » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:09 pm

Talan-
The advantage to Player A making this deal is that he would essentially receive one more keeper than the rest of the league. Plus as you noted he would extend Pujols contract for an extra year. This appears to be a great trade for both teams assuming Player A has 5 other quality keepers besides Pujols, after trading away Santana. Sure it definitely rewards Player B, regardless of how the number one pick was decided. But that is the reward for having the number one pick. Like everyone else has said, the original trade should is fine under the current keeper rules provided.
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