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Could the Royals win the AL Central?

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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby jlm53089 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:42 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Captain Jack Sparrow wrote:
J35J wrote:I've got no problem with Moore....actually I like him.

With that said, 3rd place is as high as my expectations go this year. :,-(

3rd place!? If I'm a Royals fan, I'm throwing a parade for 3rd. Which two teams are they better than?

What teams were the Rays considered better than in February of '08?


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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby webhead05 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:57 pm

J35J wrote:
Captain Jack Sparrow wrote:
J35J wrote:
I've got no problem with Moore....actually I like him.

With that said, 3rd place is as high as my expectations go this year. :,-(



3rd place!? If I'm a Royals fan, I'm throwing a parade for 3rd. Which two teams are they better than?


I said 3rd is as high as I could expect....not saying they will finish third. It will have more to do with the other teams falling on their face than the Royals winning anything more than 75-78 games.....see the Tigers last year.


The thing with the Royals is all about where they came from....nobody realizes what kind of shape our whole organization was in the last decade plus...

Moore came in and pretty much doubled the number of scouts we have and reworked our whole minor league system....this is the key to everything right now. There is no signings we can do that will guarantee us consistant high finishes so the Jacobs/Guillen types are just here as stop gaps and proven bats to help us stay afloat until the Moustakas, Hosmer, Melville, etc of the world show up. This will take longer than 3 years to turn around. I couldn't be more excited about where the Royals organization is headed with Moore at the top. 90% of the focus has been on the minor leauges and getting that to respectability or better than respectablility becaue if we plan to win on any kind of consistant basis it will all start with our minor leagues. I think we showed that importance last year when we spent more than anyone in the draft last year and argueable had the BEST draft out of any organization last year. People just don't truely realize how bad of an organization we were before Moore got here and the major league team was only a small part of the problem. I can't wait to see what Moore does with a couple more years and a couple more drafts under his belt.



Couldn't have said it better myself. I love how anytime the Royals are brought up, anyone who can simply mutter the words "they suck" or any variation thereof, think that they are an expert on the team and on baseball in general. Am I an expert? Not at all, never have claimed to be. But my opinion is an educated one. I will be upfront in saying I am somewhat of a homer. But I'm not blinded by my faith and optimism. I can see the trees through the forest.

To answer the question post in the post, the short answer is no. Sure they could catch lightning in a bottle and contend for a good part of the season like they did in '03, but that is highly unlikely. But stranger things have happened.....

Do "they suck?" definetely not! They still have issues, but they are making ground. They are still a few years from making a serious run but they are far from the pushovers they used to be.

And as for whoever it was that says Moore makes bad moves and overpays for free agents. Well, I personally don't think the moves are that bad. He's had a couple lame duck moves, the biggest being the Gathright - Howell swap, but overall he's done a pretty good job. If the move upgrades you at that position is it really a bad move? Reguardless of the who or what of it? Also, as far as overpaying goes, that's what happens when you have the track record the Royals do. You HAVE to overpay to get anyone of credibility to come to your team. Also, it doesn't help that the team is based in the middle of the country! I'm not saying I like all the players he's brought in because I'm not a fan of Guillen or Crisp AT ALL! But they do IMPROVE the team. And in the end that's all I want!
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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby Big Pimpin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:46 pm

The question was raised earlier about Meche and whether or not (I thought) he was a bad signing. I do not, I think he was a pretty good signing. However, cherry picking one good move as defense of your GM just isn't enough IMO. I mean if you're going to do that, then Bavasi was a great GM. He may have made a whole bunch of terrible moves, but he did sign Beltre, so there's something to be said for that!

Actually, the more I look at it, Moore and Bavasi have a lot in common so far. A good track record in regards to the draft, because there's certainly talent in the organization. But with maybe one exception (Meche/Beltre) every big league move has been terrible. I guess we'll see if the young kids work out or if Moore ends up trading Mous, Butler, Hosmer, and Melville for Cliff Lee or something stupid like that.

And how does Jose Guillen improve the team? He's a terrible defensive OF who also happened to be a below-average hitter last year. He was barely above replacement level. %-6
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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby webhead05 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:46 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:The question was raised earlier about Meche and whether or not (I thought) he was a bad signing. I do not, I think he was a pretty good signing. However, cherry picking one good move as defense of your GM just isn't enough IMO. I mean if you're going to do that, then Bavasi was a great GM. He may have made a whole bunch of terrible moves, but he did sign Beltre, so there's something to be said for that!

Actually, the more I look at it, Moore and Bavasi have a lot in common so far. A good track record in regards to the draft, because there's certainly talent in the organization. But with maybe one exception (Meche/Beltre) every big league move has been terrible. I guess we'll see if the young kids work out or if Moore ends up trading Mous, Butler, Hosmer, and Melville for Cliff Lee or something stupid like that.

And how does Jose Guillen improve the team? He's a terrible defensive OF who also happened to be a below-average hitter last year. He was barely above replacement level. %-6


It's clear that your knowledge of the Royals is lacking. That's ok because that's generally how 90% of "professional sportswriters" and the such perceive the Royals.

Let's look at some of Moore's biggest moves, in no particular order......

#1 Traded J.P. Howell for Joey Gathright - thought it was a good move at the time. Howell wasn't great as a pitcher here and Gathright has some upside. In hindsight, Howell greatly improved as a RP and Gathright never improved. That's why Gathright is now gone. Verdict - Bad Trade

#2 Traded Mike Macdougal for Tyler Lumsden and Dan Cortes - Here he traded an oft-injured closer for two prospects. Lumsden has flamed out and is now gone but Cortes on the other hand has been a highly touted prospect in the organization and is viewed my many as a steal considered who he was traded for. Verdict - Great Trade

#3 Traded Jeremy Affeldt and Denny Bautista for Ryan Shealy and Scott Dohmann - This trade really sucked for everyone all around even though Affeldt is still pitching and Shealy is still hitting. Both have had ups and downs and Shealy's end of last year was promising. But overall, Verdict - No really winners here.

#4 Traded Ambiorix Burgos for Brian Bannister - Do I really even need to go into this one. Banny has shown some flashes of brilliance while Burgos has beat up women. Verdict - Royals Win!

#5 Traded Jorge De La Rosa for Ramon Ramirez - De La Rosa stunk, Ram Ram was great out of the pen last season. Verdict - Royals Win again!

#6 Traded Octavio Dotel for Kyle Davies - Dotel was good but was going to be a free agent and is old. Davies was a young pitcher with upside. Verdict - Good Trade

Lets not forget the signings of Meche, and Mahay among others. And last but not least...how about the pickup of Soria in the Rule 5 Draft! As the proof shows, he hasn't been perfect but he has helped upgrade the team significantly.

As far as Guillen goes, I'm the last person that will defend that guy as I despise him as a player. I hate the fact that he's lazy and is a clubhouse cancer. That aside though, his season actually wasn't that far off from his normal numbers. And just his average stats are a lot more productive than some of the players the Royals have had in the outfield in years past. (Costa, Teahen, Emil (E-7) Brown.) As far as his defense goes, he is somewhat of a liability because he's a lazy ass! But you do NOT test his arm. He is arguably in the top 10 when it comes to his arm in the game today.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just simply stating facts. Do yourself a favor, go back to what the Royals looked like before Dayton Moore took over. Then you will truly grasp the improvements he has made. Is he perfect? No he's far from it. But the Royals have gone from an absolute joke to a respectable franchise in just his few short years as GM.
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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby hybrid » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:02 pm

bigh0rt wrote:What teams were the Rays considered better than in February of '08?


Orioles and Jays :-D
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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby Big Pimpin » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:15 pm

webhead05 wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:The question was raised earlier about Meche and whether or not (I thought) he was a bad signing. I do not, I think he was a pretty good signing. However, cherry picking one good move as defense of your GM just isn't enough IMO. I mean if you're going to do that, then Bavasi was a great GM. He may have made a whole bunch of terrible moves, but he did sign Beltre, so there's something to be said for that!

Actually, the more I look at it, Moore and Bavasi have a lot in common so far. A good track record in regards to the draft, because there's certainly talent in the organization. But with maybe one exception (Meche/Beltre) every big league move has been terrible. I guess we'll see if the young kids work out or if Moore ends up trading Mous, Butler, Hosmer, and Melville for Cliff Lee or something stupid like that.

And how does Jose Guillen improve the team? He's a terrible defensive OF who also happened to be a below-average hitter last year. He was barely above replacement level. %-6


It's clear that your knowledge of the Royals is lacking. That's ok because that's generally how 90% of "professional sportswriters" and the such perceive the Royals.

Let's look at some of Moore's biggest moves, in no particular order......

#1 Traded J.P. Howell for Joey Gathright - thought it was a good move at the time. Howell wasn't great as a pitcher here and Gathright has some upside. In hindsight, Howell greatly improved as a RP and Gathright never improved. That's why Gathright is now gone. Verdict - Bad Trade

#2 Traded Mike Macdougal for Tyler Lumsden and Dan Cortes - Here he traded an oft-injured closer for two prospects. Lumsden has flamed out and is now gone but Cortes on the other hand has been a highly touted prospect in the organization and is viewed my many as a steal considered who he was traded for. Verdict - Great Trade

#3 Traded Jeremy Affeldt and Denny Bautista for Ryan Shealy and Scott Dohmann - This trade really sucked for everyone all around even though Affeldt is still pitching and Shealy is still hitting. Both have had ups and downs and Shealy's end of last year was promising. But overall, Verdict - No really winners here.

#4 Traded Ambiorix Burgos for Brian Bannister - Do I really even need to go into this one. Banny has shown some flashes of brilliance while Burgos has beat up women. Verdict - Royals Win!

#5 Traded Jorge De La Rosa for Ramon Ramirez - De La Rosa stunk, Ram Ram was great out of the pen last season. Verdict - Royals Win again!

#6 Traded Octavio Dotel for Kyle Davies - Dotel was good but was going to be a free agent and is old. Davies was a young pitcher with upside. Verdict - Good Trade

Lets not forget the signings of Meche, and Mahay among others. And last but not least...how about the pickup of Soria in the Rule 5 Draft! As the proof shows, he hasn't been perfect but he has helped upgrade the team significantly.

As far as Guillen goes, I'm the last person that will defend that guy as I despise him as a player. I hate the fact that he's lazy and is a clubhouse cancer. That aside though, his season actually wasn't that far off from his normal numbers. And just his average stats are a lot more productive than some of the players the Royals have had in the outfield in years past. (Costa, Teahen, Emil (E-7) Brown.) As far as his defense goes, he is somewhat of a liability because he's a lazy ass! But you do NOT test his arm. He is arguably in the top 10 when it comes to his arm in the game today.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just simply stating facts. Do yourself a favor, go back to what the Royals looked like before Dayton Moore took over. Then you will truly grasp the improvements he has made. Is he perfect? No he's far from it. But the Royals have gone from an absolute joke to a respectable franchise in just his few short years as GM.


I don't know man, besides Soria those moves look like a whole lot of nothing. Winning an occasional fringe trade or picking up a 3 star prospect for a closer is something all GMs do. Going back to the Bavasi example, not only did he "win" the Freddy Garcia trade by landing Olivo, Reed, and Morse and signed Beltre and Ibanez, but the team also put up a decent (albeit lucky) record in 2007 (a bit like the 2008 Royals perhaps). I'm not going to argue that the team isn't better than it was before, but it would be tough for anyone to make a franchise worse off than it was under Baird. Only time will tell if it all works out and they can actually contend in the future, I just haven't been terribly impressed with his body of work so far (with the exception of the draft, but we still don't know how that all is going to play out).
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Re: Could the Royals win the AL Central?

Postby webhead05 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:33 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
webhead05 wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:The question was raised earlier about Meche and whether or not (I thought) he was a bad signing. I do not, I think he was a pretty good signing. However, cherry picking one good move as defense of your GM just isn't enough IMO. I mean if you're going to do that, then Bavasi was a great GM. He may have made a whole bunch of terrible moves, but he did sign Beltre, so there's something to be said for that!

Actually, the more I look at it, Moore and Bavasi have a lot in common so far. A good track record in regards to the draft, because there's certainly talent in the organization. But with maybe one exception (Meche/Beltre) every big league move has been terrible. I guess we'll see if the young kids work out or if Moore ends up trading Mous, Butler, Hosmer, and Melville for Cliff Lee or something stupid like that.

And how does Jose Guillen improve the team? He's a terrible defensive OF who also happened to be a below-average hitter last year. He was barely above replacement level. %-6


It's clear that your knowledge of the Royals is lacking. That's ok because that's generally how 90% of "professional sportswriters" and the such perceive the Royals.

Let's look at some of Moore's biggest moves, in no particular order......

#1 Traded J.P. Howell for Joey Gathright - thought it was a good move at the time. Howell wasn't great as a pitcher here and Gathright has some upside. In hindsight, Howell greatly improved as a RP and Gathright never improved. That's why Gathright is now gone. Verdict - Bad Trade

#2 Traded Mike Macdougal for Tyler Lumsden and Dan Cortes - Here he traded an oft-injured closer for two prospects. Lumsden has flamed out and is now gone but Cortes on the other hand has been a highly touted prospect in the organization and is viewed my many as a steal considered who he was traded for. Verdict - Great Trade

#3 Traded Jeremy Affeldt and Denny Bautista for Ryan Shealy and Scott Dohmann - This trade really sucked for everyone all around even though Affeldt is still pitching and Shealy is still hitting. Both have had ups and downs and Shealy's end of last year was promising. But overall, Verdict - No really winners here.

#4 Traded Ambiorix Burgos for Brian Bannister - Do I really even need to go into this one. Banny has shown some flashes of brilliance while Burgos has beat up women. Verdict - Royals Win!

#5 Traded Jorge De La Rosa for Ramon Ramirez - De La Rosa stunk, Ram Ram was great out of the pen last season. Verdict - Royals Win again!

#6 Traded Octavio Dotel for Kyle Davies - Dotel was good but was going to be a free agent and is old. Davies was a young pitcher with upside. Verdict - Good Trade

Lets not forget the signings of Meche, and Mahay among others. And last but not least...how about the pickup of Soria in the Rule 5 Draft! As the proof shows, he hasn't been perfect but he has helped upgrade the team significantly.

As far as Guillen goes, I'm the last person that will defend that guy as I despise him as a player. I hate the fact that he's lazy and is a clubhouse cancer. That aside though, his season actually wasn't that far off from his normal numbers. And just his average stats are a lot more productive than some of the players the Royals have had in the outfield in years past. (Costa, Teahen, Emil (E-7) Brown.) As far as his defense goes, he is somewhat of a liability because he's a lazy ass! But you do NOT test his arm. He is arguably in the top 10 when it comes to his arm in the game today.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm just simply stating facts. Do yourself a favor, go back to what the Royals looked like before Dayton Moore took over. Then you will truly grasp the improvements he has made. Is he perfect? No he's far from it. But the Royals have gone from an absolute joke to a respectable franchise in just his few short years as GM.


I don't know man, besides Soria those moves look like a whole lot of nothing. Winning an occasional fringe trade or picking up a 3 star prospect for a closer is something all GMs do. Going back to the Bavasi example, not only did he "win" the Freddy Garcia trade by landing Olivo, Reed, and Morse and signed Beltre and Ibanez, but the team also put up a decent (albeit lucky) record in 2007 (a bit like the 2008 Royals perhaps). I'm not going to argue that the team isn't better than it was before, but it would be tough for anyone to make a franchise worse off than it was under Baird. Only time will tell if it all works out and they can actually contend in the future, I just haven't been terribly impressed with his body of work so far (with the exception of the draft, but we still don't know how that all is going to play out).


Fair enough. Anything he does will be under scrutiny until they do start competing for pennants year in and out. And I agree that it's hard to be worse off then when Baird had the team. But for myself, a Royals fan, I watch the team on a daily basis. And considering where they were under Baird and the quality of baseball that was played under his regime, There is no arguing the fact that the Royals entire system has greatly improved from where they were 4 years ago. It all comes down to the money that's being spent, and David Glass is still being a penny pincher.
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