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2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby metsfan12 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:01 am

RedHopeful wrote:
GiantsFan14 wrote:the thing is, i'm pretty sure lou has been using marmol correctly so far. what makes the 8th different than the 9th? he needs to be using marmol in the most high leverage situations whether that be in the 8th, 9th or even earlier. if the heart of the order comes up in the 8th then marmol should pitch in the 8th. if the bases are loaded in the 7th and lou needs someone to limit the damage, he should bring marmol in. by anointing marmol the lone closer, it makes it harder for lou to deal with fans and media when he needs to use him correctly. he says that there will be opportunities for both pitchers, and thats exactly what he should say because it's the correct way to handle a bullpen.

While this is probably true, it doesn't work like this in baseball. The "best" relievers are given the closer role for a couple of reasons. One, they have proven themselves to be their team's most trusted finisher. While I agree one inning/situation is as important as another, you still need to anoint one person to be relied on to finish every game. It's as important for the team's psyche as it is for the game's outcome.

Two, there are rewards for being the team's bull. With the added pressure, the closer is given the most recognition plus monetary benefits. Most relief pitchers covet this and it's well known how Marmol feels about it.

I don't know the pulse of Chicago's fans/media, but I expect they'd prefer to see Marmol in the closer role rather than going with someone else who seems to struggle one too many times in the 9th.


None of what you said is a reason to put Marmol in as closer and it DOES work like this in baseball. If anything the other relievers can pitch with more ease knowing that Marmol is there to come in if they get in trouble. The Cubs have no reason to try to increase Marmol's value or his potential payoff. If anything the opposite is true. If he requires being a closer with his next team then the Cubs can promise him that then but that doesn't change anything this season.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby NittanyLions1 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:15 am

metsfan12 wrote:
RedHopeful wrote:
GiantsFan14 wrote:the thing is, i'm pretty sure lou has been using marmol correctly so far. what makes the 8th different than the 9th? he needs to be using marmol in the most high leverage situations whether that be in the 8th, 9th or even earlier. if the heart of the order comes up in the 8th then marmol should pitch in the 8th. if the bases are loaded in the 7th and lou needs someone to limit the damage, he should bring marmol in. by anointing marmol the lone closer, it makes it harder for lou to deal with fans and media when he needs to use him correctly. he says that there will be opportunities for both pitchers, and thats exactly what he should say because it's the correct way to handle a bullpen.

While this is probably true, it doesn't work like this in baseball. The "best" relievers are given the closer role for a couple of reasons. One, they have proven themselves to be their team's most trusted finisher. While I agree one inning/situation is as important as another, you still need to anoint one person to be relied on to finish every game. It's as important for the team's psyche as it is for the game's outcome.

Two, there are rewards for being the team's bull. With the added pressure, the closer is given the most recognition plus monetary benefits. Most relief pitchers covet this and it's well known how Marmol feels about it.

I don't know the pulse of Chicago's fans/media, but I expect they'd prefer to see Marmol in the closer role rather than going with someone else who seems to struggle one too many times in the 9th.


None of what you said is a reason to put Marmol in as closer and it DOES work like this in baseball. If anything the other relievers can pitch with more ease knowing that Marmol is there to come in if they get in trouble. The Cubs have no reason to try to increase Marmol's value or his potential payoff. If anything the opposite is true. If he requires being a closer with his next team then the Cubs can promise him that then but that doesn't change anything this season.


Jerry Manuel seems to agree (from Rotoworld)

Francisco Rodriguez-R- Mets Apr. 13 - 8:31 am et
Mets manager Jerry Manuel said Sunday that he'll use Francisco Rodriguez in non-save situations this season.
"We have, as an industry, somewhat boxed ourselves into making people believe that, 'If it's not that [save] situation, I don't do well,'" Manuel said. "But the game is still on the line. That's the bottom line. And that's what we -- especially as the team we are in New York -- we have to understand that. It's about the win, and not the statistic." K-Rod pitched in just seven non-save situations last season. Expect that to rise.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby perlick29 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:23 am

GiantsFan14 wrote:
perlick29 wrote:
racrzeke wrote:Yea it was a non save gave up HR and a double but got a few K's. Lou didnt look too happy though


It's enough already with Gregg. He was a fluke last year, a fluke in spring training, Lou should just make the switch we all expected from the beginning. Marmol is a dominant guy who should be closing out games not watching some guy make a mess after he's done. Reminds me of how Joe Borowksi was with the Indians. It's enough already.


the thing is, i'm pretty sure lou has been using marmol correctly so far. what makes the 8th different than the 9th? he needs to be using marmol in the most high leverage situations whether that be in the 8th, 9th or even earlier. if the heart of the order comes up in the 8th then marmol should pitch in the 8th. if the bases are loaded in the 7th and lou needs someone to limit the damage, he should bring marmol in. by anointing marmol the lone closer, it makes it harder for lou to deal with fans and media when he needs to use him correctly. he says that there will be opportunities for both pitchers, and thats exactly what he should say because it's the correct way to handle a bullpen.


I happen to agree with this a lot actually. It's just that Gregg like I said is a fluke from last year and spring training so he doesn't deserve high leverage situations. When you have to make weird excuses about someone's knee getting stiff after sitting from warming up something isn't right. What's the next excuse going to be after he fails? He can't sit down for 3 hours after he throws a warmup pitch or his behind tightens and he's less effective?

Here's the blurb from roto on that last bit:

"Cubs trainers informed manager Lou Piniella Sunday that Kevin Gregg needs to enter the game shortly after his warmup tosses have concluded, or the closer's left knee will tighten.

Gregg hasn't posted a clean inning yet this season, but is still hanging on to closing duties. "Gregg is our closer; I said that last night," Piniella said Sunday. "Look, I found out an interesting piece of information on Gregg that I didn't know about. And that's that once I get him up and don't use him, his knee tightens up on him... I won't use him at all in the eighth inning because he sits here. And then he goes out there and his knee 's a little tighter in the ninth." It sounds like the condition will only further cement his status as the club's ninth inning guy."

This is not high leverage material, I promise you.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby Maris09 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:50 am

Guys, these are all just opinions on how closers should be used (happens every year).
Let's try to keep this thread about relevent closer information so we don't have to sift through 10 pages of couch manager opinions.

:-*

(Yes, I know now someone will now come in and say this is clutter too....but someone has to say this eventually otherwise the whole thread will be bickering on how managers should manage. This isn't the how managers should manage thread.)
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby metsfan12 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:36 pm

Maris09 wrote:Guys, these are all just opinions on how closers should be used (happens every year).
Let's try to keep this thread about relevent closer information so we don't have to sift through 10 pages of couch manager opinions.

:-*

(Yes, I know now someone will now come in and say this is clutter too....but someone has to say this eventually otherwise the whole thread will be bickering on how managers should manage. This isn't the how managers should manage thread.)


Well since how they should sometimes trickles into how they DO, it is pretty relevant don't you think?

Question for Havok: Why do you have Dotel 2nd in line if you don't think he is 2nd in line as stated earlier. How do you see Linebrink, Thorton and Dotel in that pecking order? Just getting ready in case Fatty Jenks goes down with an injury at some point and dotel is nearly rosterable for his K's alone in roto.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby neoforce » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:44 pm

Maris09 wrote:Guys, these are all just opinions on how closers should be used (happens every year).
Let's try to keep this thread about relevent closer information so we don't have to sift through 10 pages of couch manager opinions.

:-*

(Yes, I know now someone will now come in and say this is clutter too....but someone has to say this eventually otherwise the whole thread will be bickering on how managers should manage. This isn't the how managers should manage thread.)


I agree except that there may be a difference this year. It seems a few managers are actually considering doing things differently. Oh there have been some here and there that tried to break the old ideas of what a closer is, but have failed.

This year we have multiple impacts. Pinella's management of the Cubs bullpen. As was posted above Manuel with K-Rod. The Closer by committee in St. Louis may be because of the players available, but La Russa isn't always conventional and may be looking at things differently. I'm also not sure about Macha in Milwaukee. I wouldn't be surprised if he shuns the traditional idea of closer goes in only in a save situation.

So, I agree that discussions about the "theory" of the best way to use closers is not relevant here, start a new thread. But discussions about how managers are actually using "closers" is relevant.

As a K-Rod owner, I was peeved that Manuel used him when it wasn't a save situation this weekend. I need to know that he does/doesn't care about the save stat so I can evaluate the impact on K-Rod and Putz value.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby Maris09 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:17 pm

metsfan12 wrote:Well since how they should sometimes trickles into how they DO, it is pretty relevant don't you think?

No.

All it ends up being is bickering back and forth on what a manager SHOULD do.
I'm done, no more clutter from me. If you can't figure out how your opinion on the use of closers in general is just more clutter in an already cluttered thread, good luck to you.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby Syfo-Dyas » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:50 pm

NittanyLions1 wrote:
metsfan12 wrote:
RedHopeful wrote:While this is probably true, it doesn't work like this in baseball. The "best" relievers are given the closer role for a couple of reasons. One, they have proven themselves to be their team's most trusted finisher. While I agree one inning/situation is as important as another, you still need to anoint one person to be relied on to finish every game. It's as important for the team's psyche as it is for the game's outcome.

Two, there are rewards for being the team's bull. With the added pressure, the closer is given the most recognition plus monetary benefits. Most relief pitchers covet this and it's well known how Marmol feels about it.

I don't know the pulse of Chicago's fans/media, but I expect they'd prefer to see Marmol in the closer role rather than going with someone else who seems to struggle one too many times in the 9th.


None of what you said is a reason to put Marmol in as closer and it DOES work like this in baseball. If anything the other relievers can pitch with more ease knowing that Marmol is there to come in if they get in trouble. The Cubs have no reason to try to increase Marmol's value or his potential payoff. If anything the opposite is true. If he requires being a closer with his next team then the Cubs can promise him that then but that doesn't change anything this season.


Jerry Manuel seems to agree (from Rotoworld)

Francisco Rodriguez-R- Mets Apr. 13 - 8:31 am et
Mets manager Jerry Manuel said Sunday that he'll use Francisco Rodriguez in non-save situations this season.
"We have, as an industry, somewhat boxed ourselves into making people believe that, 'If it's not that [save] situation, I don't do well,'" Manuel said. "But the game is still on the line. That's the bottom line. And that's what we -- especially as the team we are in New York -- we have to understand that. It's about the win, and not the statistic." K-Rod pitched in just seven non-save situations last season. Expect that to rise.


I always said that your Marmol should be used as an escape specialist, or deal with the dangerous part of the lineup. But this strategy requires another good releiver to work as a closer, so not many teams can afford that.
And I have to disagree with Jerry Manuel here. He got Putz, who is just as good as F-Rod.
(And before anyone starts to speculate I dont own F-Rod but I do have Putz, so this is actually good news for me.)
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby BitterDodgerFan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:57 pm

look, if there is no marmol, then there might not even be a game to close. there's no point having a lights out reliever like marmol if someone like gregg is in the 8th to blow the lead. take your chances with marmol setting up and hope gregg gets an ugly save. marmol is too good to only save him to close out games.
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Re: 2009 Closers Thread (No Game Commentary Please)

Postby yakimancan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:31 pm

Is ryan franklin worth owning right now?
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