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Postby wrveres » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:17 am

LBJackal wrote:I never said Bonds is guilty.......I said he's likely guilty, more likely than he's innocent. And after reading Van Slyke's comments, yeah, he's way off.

It's not guilt by association. It's an opinion based on facts. His trainer has been caught with illegal steroids and there are witnesses claiming that Bonds was given steroids.

The San Francisco Chronicle reported that San Francisco Giants outfielder Barry Bonds, who holds baseball's single-season home-run record, received steroids and human growth hormone from personal trainer Greg Anderson.



I'm making assumptions, not proving guilt. With the information I have, I would assume chances are he took steroids.


funny that you would quote the Chronicle while I just took them to task.

I think there should be an investigation as to where that information in that exact paragraph came from. It is Slander. Not one other paper has collaborated it !!
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Postby LBJackal » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:26 am

I'm not using them as proof. They got the evidence from somewhere, and it's not an objective opinion that he received steroids. It's clear cut black and white. I read somewhere that a witness said that Bonds received steroids.......not sure where I read it though. And you said yourself "there is proof that he received steroids".

You have to admit, it doesn't look good for Bonds. If you had to make an assumption, what would it be? Not requiring proof, just your opinion.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:29 am

LBJackal wrote:I'm not using them as proof. They got the evidence from somewhere, and it's not an objective opinion that he received steroids. It's clear cut black and white. I read somewhere that a witness said that Bonds received steroids.......not sure where I read it though. And you said yourself "there is proof that he received steroids".

You have to admit, it doesn't look good for Bonds. If you had to make an assumption, what would it be? Not requiring proof, just your opinion.


I never said that? where did you get that ?
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Postby LBJackal » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:34 am

wrveres on Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:56 pm wrote:Guilt by association is not guilt.
there is proof that he received steroids,
there is no proof that he took steroids.


From there.

Either way, a major newspaper reported it, and I'll still consider that even though you don't believe anything they write, and I've also heard elsewhere (I think it was on Yahoo news or something) that a witness said Bonds did in fact receive steroids.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:51 am

Fixed, thanks Jackal
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:15 am

djacks wrote:I've heard and read many baseball "experts" lately that have said the next few years will tell us the truth as to whether or not Bonds and others are/were on steriods...if their HR numbers drop, they must have been taking steriods the last few years and now have stopped.

FYI - How many HR's did Roger Maris hit in 1962?

Answer: 33

Conclusion: Roger Maris was on steriods when he hit 61 HR's!!! The Babe shold still hold the record!


I hope that this was a joke but I will assume that it isn't. 1 year wonders happen but we are talking about someone who has had his career years as he approached 40.

Instead of retyping everything, I will just quote my other post on Barry:

Lofunzo wrote:A lot of the press doesn't like Barry and some of it is justified and some of it is not. What many people fail to realize is what mbuser mentioned. A main reason that Bonds always gets more grief over this than Giambi or Sheffield (who is no media darling either) is because Bonds is breaking records. When Giambi retires, no one is gonna remember 40 HR's here or 35 there. When Bonds retires, he is a 1st ballot HOF'er who will hold the single season HR record and probably the career number as well. That is a huge difference. Also, many sluggers have come and gone. Babe Ruth is the greatest slugger of all-time and there have been some players that have tried to move into his area but have fallen short. You now have Barry not only moving into his neighborhood but he's damn close to buying a house right next to him. To many, Ruth is/was baseball and if someone is going to take his spot on the HR list, it would be nice if it was legit. Bonds is putting himself up there with the immortals of the game. Hootie has numerous formulas when comparing players from different eras. To my knowledge, there is no formula for the steroid factor. It would be nice if he was clean and I really hope that he is/was. What I'm trying to say is that I understand why people would be skepticle.

I don't know whether he ever did steroids but gun to my head, I would say that I think he did them. All of the people that say.......What about innocent until proven guilty? Please. This is a message forum where people are voicing their opinions. Isn't that what this place is for?? Some people are more vigorous in their opinions but they are just that. Opinions. If there ever comes a time where they bring the information on this site into court to defend or prosecute Barry, then we will have a problem. Since that will never happen, I say that we all be allowed to voice our opinions on this subject without getting mauled by the Barry police or the Barry prosecutors.

WR.......I would like you to honestly answer a question. I won't judge you at all. I know that you have done a lot of research on steroids and I know that you are a Barry defender. Please take any bias and any innocent until proven guilty thoughts out of it and just answer this question.......Do you think that he ever took steroids as a professional baseball player?? Again, no judging here. I really just want your opinion. Thanks.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:02 am

The entire Bonds persecution has become a farcical witchhunt.

I find it amusing how the American public and media can pick and choose whom they want to subject to public shame.

Consider for a moment the US Olympic Committee. The organization vehemently denied for years that any of their atheletes took performance enhancing drugs while leading the crusade against Ben Johnson, the Chinese and East Germans. The USOC were the first ones to point the finger and the most smug observers when someone was caught.

It now comes out that dozens of American atheletes failed drug tests between 1985 and 2000 BUT WERE ALLOWED BY THE USOC TO GO TO THE OLYMPICS ANYWAYS. Among those were Jerome Young who won a gold medal at the 2000 games and probably Carl Lewis. They were allowed to go because they were taking THG and other illegal substances that could be detected by the USOC but not by Olympic testers.

Lofunzo - who gives a crap about the HR record? We have here is a country endorsing cheating.

Carl Lewis has won 9 gold medals - how many people are investigating him. How many people want to put an asterisk beside his accomplishments? The US track and field Association is having a vote for the top moments in US track - 3 of the 25 nominated moments are Carl Lewis Olympic feats. Has he gotten off? Where are the Carl Lewis stories?

This is clearly a systemmic problem. There is so much money involved in world class sports that cheating has become the norm and you get left behind if you don't do it as well.

So when the media seizes on Barry and hold him out as a cheater while sweeping the USOC problem under the carpet I say Shame on you. They have found a scapegoat and everybody is more than happy that they have.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:17 am

Lo,

No I do not think Barry ever took steriods or HgH, I thought that was pretty obvious.
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:09 pm

wrveres wrote:Lo,

No I do not think Barry ever took steriods or HgH, I thought that was pretty obvious.


Thanks for the reply. I thought so but then you wrote this:

wrveres wrote:Did Barry take steriods, The "Facts" say no ..


I know how you feel about the facts but I didn't know what your opinion is. Now, I do. ;-D
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Postby thaklanksta » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:59 pm

I hate that everything has to do with race, or the race card is pulled out anytime someone is backed into a corner.

This is a federal investigation guys, and the dirt will be revealed, and i'm sure anyone involved will just get a slap on the wrists anyway.

Stay tuned.
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