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No doubt in my mind, it's just Sour Grapes.

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Re: No doubt in my mind, it's just Sour Grapes.

Postby LBJackal » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:34 pm

wrveres wrote:
Ralph Wiley ESPN PAGE 2 wrote:Barry Bonds will become the greatest home-run hitter in baseball history..........



Baseball vs. football | From Jim Caple
230-pound baseball players are on steroids. 260-pound linebackers are just strong


No, 260 pound linebackers are fat bastards. 230 pound baseball players who were skinny their whole careers and have trainers who have been convicted of giving steroids to their clients are on steroids.

And Bonds will never be the greatest HR hitter of all time. He'll have hit the most, but he'll never be the greatest.
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Postby Madison » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:42 pm

KolbSaves wrote:I would care if he were silver with orange polka dots on him, because that would just be cool.


It would have to be neon orange polka dots. ;-)

Lol. :-D
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Postby Joe Mauer » Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:07 pm

Madison wrote:
KolbSaves wrote:I would care if he were silver with orange polka dots on him, because that would just be cool.


It would have to be neon orange polka dots. ;-)

Lol. :-D


why NEON orange polka dots Madison? Would it be the steroids making him glow in that NEON fashion? :-?

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Re: No doubt in my mind, it's just Sour Grapes.

Postby wrveres » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:23 pm

LBJackal wrote:No, 260 pound linebackers are fat bastards. 230 pound baseball players who were skinny their whole careers and have trainers who have been convicted of giving steroids to their clients are on steroids.


First off Jackal, no one has been convicted of anything. I understand that you probably convicted Bonds back in 2001, so here is a a little something that I recently sent to the SF Chronicle. I fiound it interesting that not one other News Organization has been able to Collaborate their accusations ... IMHO there should be a Grand Jury investigation.

Its called Slander ..


Some "Facts" about Barry Bonds
As seen through some not so recent, San Francisco Headlines.

Let me first preface this by saying, I am not attempting to try and sway anybodies "Position", and I am certainly not going to try and spin some stats to my advantage for you either. I'll also try and avoid the expansion era pitching that scarred the 1998-2001 MLB seasons. Barry Bonds 2001 MLB season was indeed nothing less than magical. But what I would like to focus on here, is the three year time line building up to October 8th 2001. Prior to that October 8th, hardly anybody realized, or should I say reported, that Barry Lamar Bonds had actually "Bulked Up" two years earlier, and that he had actually lost weight going into the 2001 season. Its always been "reported" that he "Bulked Up" in 2001. What I am focusing on here is his 1998 and 1999 seasons, two full years before his association with BALCO. At the time he would have first started using Performance Enhancing Drugs.

Ideally these headlines from the "San Francisco Baseball Press", or SFGATE, should tell a story. Not my story, But Barry Bonds' story and his obvious pursuit of a steroid free 73, and how the Press missed it.

Just some little facts, chronologically laid out our 'unbiased' newspaper reporters known as the San Francisco Media.

February 26, 1999link
"GIANTS NOTEBOOK - Bigger, Stronger Bonds Doesn't Go Unnoticed"

SFGATE:: "He also acknowledged he's been going round-the-clock since the birth of his daughter, Aisha Lynn, early this month, though he maintained his training regimen. He has fully recovered from postseason right knee surgery and appears to have bulked up"

SFGATE:: "Bonds had minor surgery on his right knee in early October but said last week he is completely healthy and ready for spring training. Every morning, before his daily strength work and batting practice, Bonds runs at Stanford under the direction of trainer Ray Farris." " The only injury Bonds feels now is a bruised ego from watching Cardinal football players blow past him on the track.
``I like working with the younger kids. It keeps me motivated,'' Bonds said. ``I'm pumped to work. I love to work. It just gets harder every year.'''

SFGATE:: "Scottsdale, Ariz. -- Infielder Charlie Hayes walked past a group of reporters yesterday and asked, ``Did you see my man? He was huge!'' Hayes' man was left fielder Barry Bonds, who checked into camp a day late, with the blessing of management, but looking like he hit the weight room extra hard this winter. His arms and chest look bigger"

SFGATE:: "Indeed, Bonds said in an interview last month that he was complementing his usual off-season conditioning and hitting program with additional weight training to help keep his body fit as he gets older. Bonds, who hit .303 with 37 homers and 122 RBIs last year, will turn 35 on July 24"

So at the age of 34, while Barry was recovering from his off-season "knee" surgery, he "maintained his training regimen" and "compensated it by with additional weight training to help keep his body fit as he gets older". Just to repeat that, Barry couldn't use his leg, because it was recovering from surgery, so he compensated it by working on his upper body more. Why is that so unbelievable at age 34? What is so hard to imagine about a 34 year old man, in excellent health physically, and an obvious excellent athlete, is working out with weights to increase his upper body strength?

To understand a little more I think we need to look back a year,
September 28, 1998

"Bonds Lets Chance To Be Game's Hero Slip Through Hands"
"Barry will never bring us the trophy".

Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa had just "saved" baseball as we had just witnessed one of the most amazing MLB seasons ever. It seemed as if the entire world would stop what ever they were doing, just to watch Mark McGwire come up to bat. Mark had just hit 70 on his last AB of the season, and it just barely cleared the wall. A perfect ending to a historical season. A perfect number, 70 !
Baseball was Back.

"Baseball could be taking air out of football"

Barry Bonds on the other hand, was busy choking against the Chicago Cubs in a "One Game Wild Card Playoff" .. 5-3!! The SF press was obviously all over Barry Bonds and how he was a "postseason no show" again as Barry went 0-4 with a sac fly, and let his chance to be "Game's Hero Slip Through his Hands".
Needless to say, Barry had a lot of reason to be motivated in this particular off-season. On top of that, Barry was having knee surgery for the first time in his career, and was facing a major question "is my body breaking down at 34"? It's not uncommon. It is well documented that that is usually about the age when for baseball players start there statistical decline.
When Barry showed up in camp with a bigger chest and arms for the Spring Training in 1999, hardly anybody noticed. Well Charlie Hayes did, but nobody else. Why? Would anybody want to take a guess as to what kind of press exposure this "Andro" story got nationally in the spring of 1999? Tons! Andro talk was all over the press.

"Mark McGwire's record should have an asterisk!"
"Mark took Performance Enhancing Drugs"


But basically zero press reports about Barry when it came to "Bulking Up" in the spring. It barely made a headline on the back pages of the sports page section called "Giants Notebook". Here was one of the most hated men in Major League Baseball, Barry Bonds, "Bulking Up" in the dawn of Andro and even the hated SF Press saw absolutely nothing wrong with it. It seemed natural to them.


Spring 1999
"BASEBALL PREVIEW '99GIANTS PREVIEW Bonds Defies Age-Power Argument"link BTW, a must read in my opinion!
But imagine that, an entire story about Barry and no "Bulking Up". Was it omitted on purpose? This is the day and age of Andro and 70 homeruns, right?
Nope, this was Mark McGwire's world, Sammy was along for the ride and Barry was an ...

"Overpaid, Whining, Selfish Choke Artist"

Everybody in the SF media was distracted by contract squabble. So that is all we as the public knew. Because that was what the media was feeding us. Barry’s contract, Mark and Sammy !!!

"Respect Yourselves, Giants, and Trade Barry"
"Now Bonds Wants Contract Extension"
"Brother, can you share a dime?"
"Bonds gets on horn to Sabean, eases up on contract throttle


SFGATE:: "Right away, Bonds was given an opportunity to elaborate on his contractual wishes, a hot topic ever since his agent (Scott Boras) revealed at the winter meetings that Bonds would waive his no trade clause, to play for a contender"

"Right away" just so everybody knows, in SF Reporter jargon means basically, "I shoved a microphone in his face and asked him to pee in a cup." The rest of this saga is obviously Scott Boras trying to get an angle. Any fan knows that. But its all the press was focused on. Barry and his greedy self.

Regular Season 1999

Right out of the gate, Barry Bonds is batting .366 with four homers and 12 RBIs in April and is off to a fast start! April is generally Bonds' worst month, he is a .273 lifetime hitter in April and he has fewer career homers (55) and RBIs (159) than in any other month. (circa 1999 stats) But Barry has had a few hot Aprils before, no biggee. Then just a few games into the season ....

April 19, 1999
"Bonds Needed Surgery To Avoid Risking Career"

SFGATE:: "Barry Bonds can barely conceive of not playing for 10 weeks, but he underwent elbow surgery on Tuesday when doctors told him he could endanger his career if he didn't.
``I knew it was have the surgery or maybe never play baseball again,'' Bonds told reporters yesterday when he popped by the ballpark just 24 hours after his operation. ``The doctors said, `What do you want to do? Play for several more years, or just roll the dice and maybe tear the whole entire triceps?' You never know if you can come back from that.''

Now this is key to our discussion. Because now his arm that is injured. If Barry Bonds, who has just "bulked up" in the off-season during the scrutiny of Andro mind you, is currently on steroids or taking human growth hormones, he can't possibly still be using them, not at this time. He can't workout! His arm is in a sling! He has a torn Triceps Muscle. He couldn't keep up with the recommended steroid cycle if he wanted to (three weeks on, one week off. Two weeks on, three weeks off) Steroids don't work unless you work out in conjunction with them! On top of that, its a torn muscle! In Professional Weightlifting, where steroids and performance enhancing drugs are obviously rampant, if you tear your triceps muscle your career is over! Steroids are not going to save you. They certainly won't "Repair" the muscle. In light of all of this information, The current SF Press would still have you believe that Barry is 'on something', when the correct information is in their own archives.

July 24, 1999
"Barry is back, his swing isn't."

SFGATE:: " 'Swing and miss. Swing and miss. Swing and miss,' Bonds said. 'I've been struggling, fighting through injuries and just trying to do the best I can. I got pitches to hit, too. I even missed those. I'm not being overpowered. I'm just not doing it.' "

But what goes mostly unnoticed, again.
Barry Bonds' game has changed. this new found, upper body strength has its advantages. But still there is little if any 'press' mention of him bulking up. It is now mid-season 1999 and Sosa and McGwire are at it again. But only a few people notice, except for maybe a few of the rotogeeks that owned him, that Barry Bonds is swinging for the fences with his new found power. His is just crushing the ball with consistency, turning on everything. In July and August alone, he hits 24 homeruns, and scores 52 Runs with 57 RBIs!!! Project that over a full season!!! Barry finishes off 1999 with 34 homeruns in 390, injury riddled at bats. What was the SF press focusing on? Barry’s wallet!

"Giants Lock In Heart Of the Batting Order New deals for Snow, Bonds, Kent" link






Tuesday, February 22, 2000
Welcome to Pac Bell Park.
Welcome .. to more personal motivation link
"Bonds' Goal Is to Surpass Mays' Mark, With due respect to his godfather, Giants' star charts course for 660"

SFGate:: ``For the first time, I went back and started looking at what-ifs, and I kind of figured out a couple of numbers here,'' Bonds said after checking into spring training one day early yesterday. ``If I can stay healthy and play six years and average about 30-something home runs a year, I can surpass my godfather's 660 home runs. That's a good motivating factor to continue playing baseball.''

SFGATE:: Bonds has 445 home runs now. If he averaged 36 over the next six years he would, at age 41, pass Mays by a single home run. Or, Bonds could average 31 homers over seven seasons and pass Mays by two.
``Is it going to happen? I have no idea,'' Bonds said. ``I just started playing around with it to give myself something to push myself a little harder, give myself a little incentive to continue playing. I'm not in the game to beat my godfather's home- run record. It was just something as a child that you dream of and think, `Wow, that's impossible.' Then, when you look back, you're not really that far away to say hey, if you're healthy, let's see what can happen.''
"The Say Hey Kid is all for it".
``That's a real good motivator if he can do it,'' Mays said in a phone interview. ``If he says he can do it, he might be able to do it. More power to him. When I was 39, I hit 28 home runs. It could be done. I'll be anxious to see how he does. If he hits 50 this year and next year, I think he's got a shot at it.''

So, Barry Bonds at age 35 is not trying to beat Marks record, he wants to stay healthy long enough to Catch his God-Father. But Barry had never hit 50 in his career, and yet here is Mays claiming that is what he needs to do. 50! Two years in a row. And if Barry wanted to play until he was 41 or 42. Steroids would certainly shorten his career, as it is a commonly known side effect that joint and tendon damage don't go very well with older athletes and lengthy careers. Barry wanted Mays total, not Marks record. Anybody want to guess at what the SF Chronicle told him?

"Say hey, no way that Bonds will ever catch Mays"


September 29, 2000

"Kent's Outstanding Season Makes Him MVP" (SF Chronicle)

Now, after having arguably the second greatest season in his career, at the age of 36, Barry Bonds sets a new career high in homeruns with 49 just like his godfather, the man he is trying to pass, said he could. But it wasn't 50! And the loyal SF Chronicle said the MVP should go to Kent, which of course it did, and Barry went 0 for New York in the playoffs again.

Spring Training 2001

"There's a Dark Side to Hitting 500 Home Runs"
"High Strike Put to Test On 1st Pitch"

Its also a contract year and if you have Scott Boras as your agent, needless to say, the headlines are full of baseless trade rumors. The SF press is just in heaven with all this talk of Barry’s Wallet! Apologies, but there truly is no room to repeat it all here. I mean it is Boras after all, but I am sure you can imagine.

Now personally, I have searched high and low and cannot find one article or quote on Barry Bonds "Bulking Up" prior to the 2001 season. Ironically, I have found a few about him slimming down prior to the 2001 season though. (below) But yet the "Modern McCarthyites" would have you believe otherwise.

Barry now has his sight set on 500 HRs, McCovey's NL record and he just loves swinging for Willies Cove too. He is straight up, "swinging for the fences". He needs another 50 homerun season. He hits 6 Homers in 6 straight games and 11 Homeruns in the month of April, Barry’s worst month, remember? Oh, and don't forget, he has the raining MVP Batting behind him for protection. The first time in his career he has any body 'feared', batting behind him. He surpasses the 500 mark with ease as expected, and then ..

Thursday, May 31, 2001
"Move over McCovey - Bonds sets NL record in defeat"

Barry Bonds hit his 521st and 522nd career home runs to catch and pass Willie McCovey and Ted Williams for 11th place on the all-time list. He is on fire, he slugs an amazing eleven home runs over 10 games!! Barry seems to be hitting them in insane streaks and off some very watered down pitching staffs.

Wednesday, June 13, 2001

"A quartet of reasons why Barry Bonds' home-run count is in the clouds" link

SFGATE::
"THE CONTRACT .. It's all different now because the Giants have refused to negotiate for an extension. For the second time in his career, B-Bonds is on a B-line for free agency.
Make no mistake. He's on a mission"
"THE BODY .."He's more flexible," said Shields, who's in his second season at Bonds' side. "He's not as big as he was when I got here, but he's more toned and more defined."
"THE PITCHERS" .. " On paper, the higher, narrower zone should benefit Bonds. Before this season, he generally showed great patience in laying off outside pitches, and now umpires aren't supposed to call a strike unless the pitch is directly above the plate"
"THE ZONE" .. "Plain and simple, Bonds is in a zone. Maybe it's primarily a power zone -- he has 33 home runs and only 16 singles -- but a zone nonetheless"

OMG, 33 homeruns and only 16 singles, are you kidding me?

October 8, 2001

"Bonds caught in the act of being kind again - Barry is caught being kind again" (SF Chronicle)

So, one full year after being robbed of the MVP by his teammate.
Two full seasons of the Giants and Boras playing contract games
Two full seasons after Barry Bonds pro-claiming, "I can pass Mays, given time and health"
After a season in which his other personal trainer stated "He has slimmed down a lot".
And almost three years, to the day, that Barry Bonds first went under the knife because of his knee, forcing him to change his off-season workout habits in the first place,

Barry Lamar Bonds hit homerun number 73 .....

OH MY GOD !!!! "He must be on steroids ???"


That statement is for the lazy and uninformed. Sadly that has become the SF Chronicle.


Barry Bonds is simply one of greatest ballplayers any generation has ever seen. Yet sadly, our current generation is to busy pointing fingers and participating in this whipped up "Modern McCarthyism" to sit down and look at the "Logical Facts".

Its been 5 years now since Barry should have first taken Performance Enhancing Drugs and his ligaments and tendons are doing fine. In order to believe that Barry took steroids now, 5 years after the fact, you have to believe that in the face of sure scrutiny, because of Andro, and at the risk of shortening his career, a definite first ballot Hall Of Famer of 400/400 fame at that time, would risk everything. You have to believe that Barry took chemicals that had zero healing effects, while he was recovering from a possible career ending torn triceps muscle. The same injury that ended the most recent MR. Olympia's career.

The San Francisco Papers really need to check there own archives.

Hey by the way baseball fans, In a couple of months, Barry should be holding true to that "Sey Hey" proclamation. You know, The same one where the San Francisco Chronicle said. "Say hey, no way that Bonds will ever catch Mays"


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Postby LBJackal » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:48 pm

Well that's way too much for me to read. Convicted or not, it's quite clear that he most likely was doing illegal things with steroids, such as distributing them to his clients. Two of Bonds' old teammates have said that he has used steroids. Andy Van Slyke, and another guy who I can't remember his name. And Then there's that Johnny Damon comment about Giambi. You should be a defense attorney, wrveres :-D You won't be convinced or believe there was any wrongdoing until people are convicted in a court of law, will you? I'll be back in a bit, I'm going to go look for a "big head" link.............. :-b
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Postby wrveres » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:00 pm

LBJackal wrote:Well that's way too much for me to read. Convicted or not, it's quite clear that he most likely was doing illegal things with steroids, such as distributing them to his clients. Two of Bonds' old teammates have said that he has used steroids. Andy Van Slyke, and another guy who I can't remember his name. And Then there's that Johnny Damon comment about Giambi. You should be a defense attorney, wrveres :-D You won't be convinced or believe there was any wrongdoing until people are convicted in a court of law, will you? I'll be back in a bit, I'm going to go look for a "big head" link.............. :-b



so your are not going to even read it .... it just helps prove my point, Thanks Jackal ...

OH MY GOD !!!! "He must be on steroids ???"
That statement is for the lazy and uninformed. Sadly that has become the SF Chronicle.
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Postby TheRawDAWG » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:36 pm

wrveres wrote:
LBJackal wrote:Well that's way too much for me to read. Convicted or not, it's quite clear that he most likely was doing illegal things with steroids, such as distributing them to his clients. Two of Bonds' old teammates have said that he has used steroids. Andy Van Slyke, and another guy who I can't remember his name. And Then there's that Johnny Damon comment about Giambi. You should be a defense attorney, wrveres :-D You won't be convinced or believe there was any wrongdoing until people are convicted in a court of law, will you? I'll be back in a bit, I'm going to go look for a "big head" link.............. :-b



so your are not going to even read it .... it just helps prove my point, Thanks Jackal ...

OH MY GOD !!!! "He must be on steroids ???"
That statement is for the lazy and uninformed. Sadly that has become the SF Chronicle.



No it's for the people with a shred of common sense in their heads. And you really started the thread off wrong trying to say it's racism. IT'S CHEATING!!! Plain and simple, Bonds is a cheater not because he's black but because he's a steriod user. You can believe what you want but I'm sure you wont find many people blinded as you by such bias. I have no reason to say Bonds took Steriods. But I'm not an idiot. I'm not so niave to believe Bonds when his trainer is a steriod distributor, he has gained massive weight, and teammates of his have said he has taken steriods. Also, we have Bonds saying that he took unmarked pills and didn't know what they were. umm...gee could that be a back up just in case he does get caught. 'Oopps, I guess they were steriods. Well gee it's not my fault. I didn't know what they were.' WAKE UP!!! It's you that has his head up his ***. You look for all this info that may lead people to believe he isn't on steriods. Well why don't you try looking for info that proves he did take steriods. You are the one being biased. You just can't believe that one of your heroes could be a cheater. Well if you would open your eyes you would be able to easily figure out that he is.
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Postby wrveres » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:56 pm

Agreed that I may have started this thread off wrong. Do I believe that some of the hatred towards Bonds is racially motivated, partially. But most of the hatred is towards Barry comes because he is just too good.

The facts of the matter is that Barry slimmed down going into the 2001 season. That is PROVEN....

Guilt by association is not guilt.
there is no proof that he received steroids,
there is no proof that he took steroids.

did Barry take some form of Performance Enhancing supplements. Probably. But that does not mean they were steroids or HGH.
Last edited by wrveres on Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby HOOTIE » Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:53 am

WRVERES nice work, that's worth a nomination for the Nobel Prize. ;-)

Those arguing Bonds is guilty, should at least get the facts straight. No player has seen Bonds take them. The idiot VanSlyke said Bonds is huge for his age, he HAD to take them. I heard the idiots Andy interview. He clearly stated, he NEVER saw Bonds have or take them. VanSlyke is on the WITCH HUNT. If you look like a witch, you MUST be a witch. Salem, Mass. is alive and well in SF these days. Bonds may be guilty, but having players say, he MUST have taken them, proves nothing.
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Postby LBJackal » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:08 am

I never said Bonds is guilty.......I said he's likely guilty, more likely than he's innocent. And after reading Van Slyke's comments, yeah, he's way off.

It's not guilt by association. It's an opinion based on facts. His trainer has been caught with illegal steroids and there are witnesses claiming that Bonds was given steroids.

The San Francisco Chronicle reported that San Francisco Giants outfielder Barry Bonds, who holds baseball's single-season home-run record, received steroids and human growth hormone from personal trainer Greg Anderson.


I'm making assumptions, not proving guilt. With the information I have, I would assume chances are he took steroids.
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