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Salary Cap discussion (merged)

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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:14 pm

thedude wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:As an economist I have to agree that the solution is NOT a monopoly structure. That's part of the problem now.


If there was perfect competition there would be no teams in most cities that currently have teams. No royals, no Marlins, no Rays, Pirates, ect... New York would have many more than 2 teams. The cartel aspect of the game is what is required for it function.


I didn't argue for perfect competition, but you are wrong anyway, as others have pointed out. The best way to solve this problem would be the allow expansion on bigger market areas, and using a relegation system to encourage successful management. It's common in most European football leagues and works fine.

Absent that, the current cartel is workable.

Having one owner would be a disaster.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:04 pm

mweir145 wrote:
noseeum wrote:
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:It's also worth saying that different teams have different "types" of fans. Markets can't be evaluated simply by looking at the total number of people. For instance, some teams have wealthier fan bases than others. Some teams have fans that are more "interested" in sports than others. Not all blame for this can be placed on the team (wealth of fan base can't be, "interest" in sports can be changed somewhat)

For instance, the Marlins didn't even sell well when they won World Series titles. I don't think the Dolphins did too well selling tickets either, even when they had Marino and were often in the playoffs. The only time the Heat have sold lots of tickets is when they had Shaq.

Or, for football, look at the Buffalo Bills, who have a difficult time financially because Buffalo has a struggling economy (a big reason they had to play a regular season game on the road in Miami this year...).


The weather's great in Los Angeles. Someone should tell the Bills' owner.

Ralph Wilson is 90 (or somewhere thereabouts), and from what I understand the team will be sold once he dies. I don't think there is much chance of that team staying in Buffalo long-term. The NFL would likely want to get a team in LA, but I'm pretty sure MLSE in Toronto will try to buy it.


Interesting that MLSE is interested in trying to buy it. Is this known, or is it just speculation? I don't happen to believe the Bills will stay in Buffalo long-term either (I'm just not sure that anyone can actually keep the Bills proftiable; the Bills are currently profitable because Ralph Wilson has no debt). If they move, I would hope that they move to Toronto, as then it could still sort of be Buffalo's team (at least to me it could). If they move to LA or somewhere far from Buffalo, I would be very disappointed and most likely will no longer be a fan...

Enough of the rant about the Bills. Relating this to baseball, I'm saying that I think there are some current markets that cannot support a "mid-market" or "big-market" franchise, regardless of whatever actions the team takes. The Marlins are one example. Another problem is that I'm not sure there are 30 markets that can support mid-market teams every year, especially when considering that the "competitive balance" means that teams will not be making the playoffs or winning championships every year. And it's going to be difficult to get owners to be willing to take a team if they can't control the costs to make them profitable, and there isn't a guarantee that the team will turn enough revenue to make a profit. However, this could be solved I suppose if you create so much revenue sharing that the revenue sharing itself keeps each team profitable.

Either way, I don't like the salary cap idea, nor do I think it's necessary....
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Salary Cap Crap!

Postby rib217 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:35 pm

I read an article on MLB.com and have heard this argument before and I just can't take it anymore.

Coaches, and Fans wanting a salary cap on MLB. Mostly of course pointing fingers at the Yankees for the reason (suprise suprise!). It's not so much that some of these idiots want a salary cap but rather the pages of comments with morons reasons for wanting such a policy. I can't even tell you how many idiots made the argument that the MLB is just Yankees, and Red Sox every year compared the wonderfully competitve balance of the NFL or NBA. Well I decided to gather a little info and had to post it somewhere to get this off my chest!

My info is gathered on the last Eight years or 01 winners-08 winners.

NFL.

AFC- 16 teams.
14 of those 16 teams have made the playoffs in that time.
of 8 possible Super Bowl teams- 5 different teams have gone (4 Bowls= Patriots)
6 out of 8 yrs have been AFC victories.

NFC- 16 teams
14 of those 16 teams have made the playoffs in that time.
of 8 possible Super Bowl teams- 7 different teams have gone (2 Bowls= Giants)
2 out of 8 yrs resulted in NFC victories

NOW THE MLB

AL
10 of 14 teams have gone to the playoffs in that time.
of 8 possible World Series teams- 6 teams have gone (2WS Boston, 2WS New York)
5 of 8 yrs resulted in AL victories

NL
13 of 16 teams have made the playoffs in that time.
of 8 possible World Series teams- 7 teams have gone (Cardinals were in 2)
3 of 8 yrs resulted in NL victories

ONE MORE PIECE OF INFO. NFL PLAYOFFS HAVE 12 TEAMS COMPARED TO 8 IN THE MLB.

Obviously the competitive balance argument is complete garbage! So, anyone who does support Salary Cap in the MLB, please, what are some other reasons you feel this way?
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby Amazinz » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:50 pm

Diversity in the playoffs does not necessarily mean that there is competitive balance in MLB. Being a playoff viable team once every decade is not competitive balance to the fans of those teams.
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby rib217 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:21 pm

Amazinz wrote:Diversity in the playoffs does not necessarily mean that there is competitive balance in MLB. Being a playoff viable team once every decade is not competitive balance to the fans of those teams.


That may be True, but what I am saying is that the MLB is no different than the NFL when it comes to the diversity in the playoffs and Champions. (So how does Salary Cap solve the problem?)
My info was just over 8 yrs which 23 of 30 teams were playoff viable in your words, most of them being viable more than once in an 8 yr span let alone a decade. Breakdown like this:
MLB
Yankees-7yrs
Boston, Cards, Braves, Angels-5
Twins, A's-4
Astros, Dbacks, Cubs, Dodgers-3
Indians, White Sox, Giants, Padres, Phillies-2
Tigers, Rays, Mariners, Marlins, Mets, Brewers, Rockies-1

NFL
Colts-7
Patriots, Eagles-6
Steelers, Bucs, Giants, Packers, Seahawks-5
Titans, Ravens, Broncos, Jets, Cards-4
Raiders, Chargers, Bears, Cowboys-3
Dolphins, Chiefs, Jaguars, Vikings, Saints, Falcons, 49ers, Panthers, Skins-2
Browns, Bengals-1

Taking into account that the NFL has an extra 4 teams in the playoffs every year, how can you argue that the NFL is more evenly competitive due to salary cap?
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby Amazinz » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:01 pm

I don't argue that the NFL has more competitive balance due to the cap. I do believe that the NFL system, including the cap but particularly the revenue sharing system, provides better potential for competitive balance.
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby Neato Torpedo » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:15 pm

Hey, someone wanna mention the Blazers, Magic, Hornets etc? :-S Small market teams that are competing for playoff spots. Everyone cites the NFL when arguing against a salary cap, but what of the NBA? The Bulls and Knicks have both sucked for several years while their MLB counterparts spend about $340 million to remain at the top of the league.

Yes, a lot of that is the drafting system as well, and the MLB doesn't go far enough in enacting a drafting system so that the worst teams get the best players.
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby KCollins1304 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:18 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:Hey, someone wanna mention the Blazers, Magic, Hornets etc? :-S Small market teams that are competing for playoff spots. Everyone cites the NFL when arguing against a salary cap, but what of the NBA? The Bulls and Knicks have both sucked for several years while their MLB counterparts spend about $340 million to remain at the top of the league.

Yes, a lot of that is the drafting system as well, and the MLB doesn't go far enough in enacting a drafting system so that the worst teams get the best players.


Maybe we should make all the big market teams hire Isaah Thomas. Problem solved. ;-D
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:21 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:Hey, someone wanna mention the Blazers, Magic, Hornets etc? :-S Small market teams that are competing for playoff spots. Everyone cites the NFL when arguing against a salary cap, but what of the NBA? The Bulls and Knicks have both sucked for several years while their MLB counterparts spend about $340 million to remain at the top of the league.

Yes, a lot of that is the drafting system as well, and the MLB doesn't go far enough in enacting a drafting system so that the worst teams get the best players.


1. No reasonable baseball drafting system is going to be a significant part of addressing competitive balance because of the differences in player development. Short of only allowing the worst teams to draft in the first 5 rounds, it would never work.

2. What of the NBA? Your example doesn't show that their salary cap leads to competitive balance. It shows that bad management stinks it up, no matter what the rules are. There's no more competitive balance in the NBA than in MLB.
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Re: Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Postby kab21 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:22 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:Hey, someone wanna mention the Blazers, Magic, Hornets etc? :-S Small market teams that are competing for playoff spots. Everyone cites the NFL when arguing against a salary cap, but what of the NBA? The Bulls and Knicks have both sucked for several years while their MLB counterparts spend about $340 million to remain at the top of the league.

Yes, a lot of that is the drafting system as well, and the MLB doesn't go far enough in enacting a drafting system so that the worst teams get the best players.


The NBA salary cap system is much closer to the current MLB system than the NFL. It's a soft cap with a luxury tax on teams that exceed it (sound familiar). Knicks are 30M over, Lakers are 23M over, Mavericks are 35M over, etc... The only restriction that I know of is that you can't sign other teams FA's if you're over the cap, but there are ways around that (mid-level exception and sign and trades). It is also the absolutely most ridiculous trade system that has ever been created. Don't even try to defend the nonsense of matching salaries for trades. It's a good idea on paper until it is attempted to be used in real life. Let's trade player X for player Y and Z but in order for it to get approved we'll include 6 overpaid terrible players so the contracts are close.
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