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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby Neato Torpedo » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:46 pm

Selig should forcibly relocate 3 million people each from NY, Chicago, and LA, and put them in KC, TB, and Pittsburgh. :-B

I wish the drafting system could be maneuvered so that the crappy teams can get the best prospects, but as was said before, baseball prospects are always much more of a question mark than other sports. Top picks have been A-Rod, Mauer, AGon, etc, but they've also been Bryan Bullington, Kris Benson, Matt Anderson, etc. Maybe a way to simply exclude the top teams from the first round entirely and wait until the end of the offseason to award picks for players lost to FA.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby Matthias » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:56 pm

noseeum wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
thedude wrote:
If there was perfect competition there would be no teams in most cities that currently have teams. No royals, no Marlins, no Rays, Pirates, ect... New York would have many more than 2 teams. The cartel aspect of the game is what is required for it function.


So why not leave baseball the way it is and put another franchise in New York or New England to dilute the market? Wouldn't that do some good?


New England can't support, or shouldn't have to support, another team. See my last post. It's not that large of a market when compared to many others.

I appreciate your gist, but you have to be careful when limiting yourself to CSMA's. The Boston CSMA includes part of New Hampshire, but the Red Sox's market also is all of Maine and about half of Connecticut (which have their own MSA's). It's certainly possible to carve up the country into fanbases, even ignoring fans who scatter across the country, but using MSA's gives you precision without being necessarily accurate.

If I remember right (and I may not be), the Cardinals built up a huge fanbase just because their radio broadcasts hit all sorts of states in the middle of the country that were otherwise franchise-less.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby noseeum » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:14 pm

Matthias wrote:
noseeum wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
So why not leave baseball the way it is and put another franchise in New York or New England to dilute the market? Wouldn't that do some good?


New England can't support, or shouldn't have to support, another team. See my last post. It's not that large of a market when compared to many others.

I appreciate your gist, but you have to be careful when limiting yourself to CSMA's. The Boston CSMA includes part of New Hampshire, but the Red Sox's market also is all of Maine and about half of Connecticut (which have their own MSA's). It's certainly possible to carve up the country into fanbases, even ignoring fans who scatter across the country, but using MSA's gives you precision without being necessarily accurate.

If I remember right (and I may not be), the Cardinals built up a huge fanbase just because their radio broadcasts hit all sorts of states in the middle of the country that were otherwise franchise-less.


Definitely true. But this goes for a lot of teams. The Marlins for example are the only game in town for a very long while. Oakland should be able to easily leverage all the way to Sacramento. Etc. etc. The Red Sox of done a great job of creating rabid loyalty from Providence to Bangor. Tip your cap to them for doing so.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby Matthias » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:57 pm

noseeum wrote:
Matthias wrote:I appreciate your gist, but you have to be careful when limiting yourself to CSMA's. The Boston CSMA includes part of New Hampshire, but the Red Sox's market also is all of Maine and about half of Connecticut (which have their own MSA's). It's certainly possible to carve up the country into fanbases, even ignoring fans who scatter across the country, but using MSA's gives you precision without being necessarily accurate.

If I remember right (and I may not be), the Cardinals built up a huge fanbase just because their radio broadcasts hit all sorts of states in the middle of the country that were otherwise franchise-less.


Definitely true. But this goes for a lot of teams. The Marlins for example are the only game in town for a very long while. Oakland should be able to easily leverage all the way to Sacramento. Etc. etc. The Red Sox of done a great job of creating rabid loyalty from Providence to Bangor. Tip your cap to them for doing so.

Oh hey, you don't have to twist my arm in saying good things about the Red Sox organization. But I'm just trying to be fair to the other franchises that the Red Sox have a decent geographic area larger than their MSA (which, also notably, is a region that follows baseball more than other sports). And even if you go strictly by Streit's market definition, the Red Sox end up sixth on the list if you split the larger markets' allegiances between the two franchises that are within it.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:12 pm

It's also worth saying that different teams have different "types" of fans. Markets can't be evaluated simply by looking at the total number of people. For instance, some teams have wealthier fan bases than others. Some teams have fans that are more "interested" in sports than others. Not all blame for this can be placed on the team (wealth of fan base can't be, "interest" in sports can be changed somewhat)

For instance, the Marlins didn't even sell well when they won World Series titles. I don't think the Dolphins did too well selling tickets either, even when they had Marino and were often in the playoffs. The only time the Heat have sold lots of tickets is when they had Shaq.

Or, for football, look at the Buffalo Bills, who have a difficult time financially because Buffalo has a struggling economy (a big reason they had to play a regular season game on the road in Miami this year...).
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby noseeum » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:16 pm

buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:It's also worth saying that different teams have different "types" of fans. Markets can't be evaluated simply by looking at the total number of people. For instance, some teams have wealthier fan bases than others. Some teams have fans that are more "interested" in sports than others. Not all blame for this can be placed on the team (wealth of fan base can't be, "interest" in sports can be changed somewhat)

For instance, the Marlins didn't even sell well when they won World Series titles. I don't think the Dolphins did too well selling tickets either, even when they had Marino and were often in the playoffs. The only time the Heat have sold lots of tickets is when they had Shaq.

Or, for football, look at the Buffalo Bills, who have a difficult time financially because Buffalo has a struggling economy (a big reason they had to play a regular season game on the road in Miami this year...).


The weather's great in Los Angeles. Someone should tell the Bills' owner.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby mweir145 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:44 pm

buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:Or, for football, look at the Buffalo Bills, who have a difficult time financially because Buffalo has a struggling economy (a big reason they had to play a regular season game on the road in Miami this year...).

That game was in Toronto, btw, where Buffalo gets a large amount of their fans from.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby mweir145 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:48 pm

noseeum wrote:
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:It's also worth saying that different teams have different "types" of fans. Markets can't be evaluated simply by looking at the total number of people. For instance, some teams have wealthier fan bases than others. Some teams have fans that are more "interested" in sports than others. Not all blame for this can be placed on the team (wealth of fan base can't be, "interest" in sports can be changed somewhat)

For instance, the Marlins didn't even sell well when they won World Series titles. I don't think the Dolphins did too well selling tickets either, even when they had Marino and were often in the playoffs. The only time the Heat have sold lots of tickets is when they had Shaq.

Or, for football, look at the Buffalo Bills, who have a difficult time financially because Buffalo has a struggling economy (a big reason they had to play a regular season game on the road in Miami this year...).


The weather's great in Los Angeles. Someone should tell the Bills' owner.

Ralph Wilson is 90 (or somewhere thereabouts), and from what I understand the team will be sold once he dies. I don't think there is much chance of that team staying in Buffalo long-term. The NFL would likely want to get a team in LA, but I'm pretty sure MLSE in Toronto will try to buy it.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:08 pm

buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:It's also worth saying that different teams have different "types" of fans. Markets can't be evaluated simply by looking at the total number of people. For instance, some teams have wealthier fan bases than others. Some teams have fans that are more "interested" in sports than others. Not all blame for this can be placed on the team (wealth of fan base can't be, "interest" in sports can be changed somewhat)


True. But the single biggest predictor of sports revenue in a market is population.
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Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:10 pm

thedude wrote:
noseeum wrote:
thedude wrote:The best solution is to have one corporation that owns and runs every team, therefore all revenues are shared and each team acts for the common good of maximizing profits. Of course the problem then arises of how do you run the baseball operations of each team...


What evidence do you have this is true. If all teams were owned by one entity than competition would be an illusion. Collusion would be an inherent part of the system. This is a very very bad idea.



I said i would be the most economically efficient method of running the game, with the highest profits for the owners and least amount of waste. But trying to make sure that there was fair competition presents the biggest problems and is one reason why it would hard to make it work.


The highest profits and the most economically efficient are not the same thing. Monopolies have higher profits, but are also less efficient.
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