Salary Cap discussion (merged) - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Salary Cap discussion (merged)

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby AussieDodger » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:48 pm

WickedSmaat wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:
San D wrote:What really needs to be done is a salary system needs to be applied to the draft so the worst teams actually draft the best players. This is what owners should really be pushing for to try and equalize the playing field a bit.


Hallelujah!

;-D


I thought I heard they were going to be talking about a hard slotting system where teams can't go over the slot. That would work better, but it would still leave guys that have their egos too huge in the first place that won't sign with a team.


Then you bar them for the next two drafts.
"I want to go to college"
"Fine, go"
ATTENTION LONG-TIMERS! NEW FBC: http://fbc2.freeforums.net/
AussieDodger
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterEagle Eye
Posts: 11363
(Past Year: 25)
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: What do you mean, Flash Gordon approaching?

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby J35J » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:52 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
J35J wrote:The Yankees aren't ruining baseball....baseball is ruining baseball. Just ignore who says otherwise.

Whatever they want to do to get all payrolls within about 50mil of each other is the best system they can put in place....however they want to go about doing it I don't care, but there has to be some equality.


You'd also have to ignore the facts, but let's not let something like that get in the way. Baseball just completed a period in which its revenue, attendance, and degree of competition reached their highest levels ever, and the sport has had an incredible influx of young talent rarely matched in its history attracted by rapid salary growth for top end players. Yeah, that's a bad thing.

BP's got it right. And, if you are a baseball fan, You better to care about how they do it, because if they do it the wrong way, they really will ruin baseball.

:-°
J35J
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 10467
(Past Year: 369)
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby mweir145 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:01 am

I've read articles like this at BP and other baseball sites for years. Hasn't really changed my opinion that a floor and a cap would help competitive balance in baseball. Also, actually enforcing the draft slotting system would help, too. As it stands right now, the richest teams are getting not only the best free agents, but also the best prospects in the draft. And yes, this is mostly because many owners are too cheap to spend on these guys, but that's exactly the problem. The major teams like the Yankees and Red Sox aren't causing the competitive balance problem, they are just doing what they should be doing. It is everyone else that isn't pulling their weight.

And I think their argument on why a cap isn't working in hockey doesn't make any sense, either. The reason teams like the Coyotes, Blue Jackets, and Predators are failing is because they never should have been put in Phoenix, Columbus and Nashville in the first place. In fact, the only reason the NHL has a hard cap now is because Gary Bettman wanted to save these franchises. There are a handful of NHL teams (between 5-10) that just aren't in very good hockey markets, and will never be truly successful for that reason. The hard cap isn't causing the problem for these teams. It actually allowed a few of them (Nashville, San Jose, Tampa Bay) to compete and make money in recent years.
Last edited by mweir145 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16784
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby kab21 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:03 am

WickedSmaat wrote:
I thought I heard they were going to be talking about a hard slotting system where teams can't go over the slot. That would work better, but it would still leave guys that have their egos too huge in the first place that won't sign with a team.


One of the obstacles for a hard slotting system is that by using FA compensation which to some degree can reduce player contracts the MLBPA has a say of what happens in the draft. And they say no hard slotting. Getting rid of FA comp would remove one obstacle to hard slotting. I'm not sure if there are other obstacles to overcome, but from what I've understood as long as there is FA comp there won't be hard slotting.

Has anyone (blogs) taken a look at what teams benefit the most from FA comp? It's designed (from what I understand) to help small market teams when they lose a top FA and can't go into the FA market (as much) themselves. But it seems that large market teams receive more of the comp picks than the small market teams.
kab21
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe Ranker
Posts: 5340
(Past Year: 166)
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby noseeum » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:06 am

mweir145 wrote:I've read articles like this at BP and other baseball sites for years. Hasn't really changed my opinion that a floor and a cap would help competitive balance in baseball. Also, actually enforcing the draft slotting system would help, too. As it stands right now, the richest teams are getting not only the best free agents, but also the best prospects in the draft. And yes, this is mostly because many owners are too cheap to spend on these guys, but that's exactly the problem. The major teams like the Yankees and Red Sox aren't causing the competitive balance problem, they are just doing what they should be doing. It is everyone else that isn't pulling their weight.

And I think their argument on why a cap isn't working in hockey doesn't make any sense, either. The reason teams like the Coyotes, Blue Jackets, and Predators are failing is because they never should have been put in Phoenix, Columbus and Nashville in the first place. In fact, the only reason the NHL has a hard cap now is because Gary Bettman wanted to save these franchises. There are a handful of NHL teams (between 5-10) that just aren't in very good hockey markets, and will never be truly successful for that reason. The hard cap isn't causing the problem for these teams. It actually allowed a few of them (Nashville, San Jose, Tampa Bay) to compete and make money in recent years.


I think the people who suggest caps hold to the belief that owners who don't spend money are doing so because they actually can't afford it. It's just not true. So coming up with ways to reduce costs won't solve the problem. The cheap owners don't want to pay. If you setup a system where they'll make even more by spending even less, they'll just spend less.

I don't see how a floor deals with the draft problem. The system is set up right now with incentives to NOT sign your draft picks. If you don't sign a guy, you get a pick next year, so what's the big deal? Plus, if your team still stinks and your revenue declines, no big deal. Just take a bigger revenue sharing check! Every year some of the most profitable teams are the cellar dwellers. Why does anyone have sympathy for them and want to give them even more rewards for sucking?

$8 million is not a lot to sign one of the 5 best available players and have a chance to have him locked up for 8 years. The compensation pick should be eliminated and the deadline too. If a guy wants to risk it all and not play pro baseball for a year, that's his right. Their needs to be incentives to getting a deal done on both sides, but right now, there's every incentive for the team to say "screw you" and not sign the guy. It's not because they can't afford it that they let a guy go by. It's that they know they'll make money either way, so why bother?

If the owners ever had to actually worry about being folded or going out of business because their team stinks, they would have much more incentive to get these picks signed.
noseeum
Major League Manager
Major League Manager


Posts: 1697
Joined: 1 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby mweir145 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:05 am

Actually, with the combination of a cap and a floor (let's take their 77M and 103M estimates), many owners would actually have to spend more than they are, which will help things considerably.


As for the draft, I don't see any reason why they can't ensure that the worst teams get the best players in the draft. It's this phenomenon that allows bad teams to become good teams in other major pro leagues (Duncan, LeBron, Paul, Wade, Crosby, Ovechkin, the Mannings, Tomlinson, etc).
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16784
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:51 am

mweir145 wrote:Actually, with the combination of a cap and a floor (let's take their 77M and 103M estimates), many owners would actually have to spend more than they are, which will help things considerably.


As for the draft, I don't see any reason why they can't ensure that the worst teams get the best players in the draft. It's this phenomenon that allows bad teams to become good teams in other major pro leagues (Duncan, LeBron, Paul, Wade, Crosby, Ovechkin, the Mannings, Tomlinson, etc).


It's not as simple as that, because a great player in college can walk in and have an immediate impact in the football and basketball, while baseball takes a far longer time to develop skills from the college level to the pros. The baseball draft is far more of a lottery.

BP's article explains quite clearly why the cap and floor system doesn't improve competitive balance and there are dozens of articles in the sports economics literature showing there is no impact at all of these on balance. Further, no one has explained to me what things need to be helped considerably...again, baseball has just been through a decade in which its competitive balance was as high as it has ever been in any period in its history and was as high or higher than every other professional sport.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to chase it."
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby Matthias » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:57 am

The article breaks down at the fundamentals as it fails to address, or even raise, the question if team salaries were more equally distributed would it result in a greater competitive balance and thus, smooth out revenues across franchises.

It also leaps from decreased incentives to no incentives when it says, "But sharing local revenue has a major drawback: it is a tax, which inevitably lowers incentives and decreases output. If the NFL shared all (or even most) local intake, why would an individual team ever look to maximize revenues at its own cost (i.e. by hiring a sales staff, or cleaning its own stadium)?" You may as well say that personal income decreases incentive to work, so why should any adult work at all? Well, you don't work for the 40% you get taxed, you work for the 60% you take home. And you might have some marginal decline in incentives, but you still have incentives. You also have tax loopholes/shelters such as building costs (see the new Yankee Stadium).

Lastly, it leaps from the 83-win team in a bad division to generalize to every team when it says, "Teams in big markets and small markets alike are making money, and everyone has a chance to win it all." He should tell that to the fans of the Pirates who he used as an example earlier in the piece. Also I would argue that there's a difference between having, "a chance to win it all" and being competitive. Short playoff series are fluky and one bounce, one pitch can decide it. What you really want to look at are the odds each team has of making the post-season or if you do use championships to be the end-all, be-all, look at the pre-season odds that each team is given by Vegas of winning the World Series. That will give you an implied metric of how each teams' fans can view their chances.

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:baseball has just been through a decade in which its competitive balance was as high as it has ever been in any period in its history and was as high or higher than every other professional sport.

You're a data guy: what is this based upon?
0-3 to 4-3. Worst choke in the history of baseball. Enough said.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 4860
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:04 pm

Matthias wrote:The article breaks down at the fundamentals as it fails to address, or even raise, the question if team salaries were more equally distributed would it result in a greater competitive balance and thus, smooth out revenues across franchises.

It also leaps from decreased incentives to no incentives when it says, "But sharing local revenue has a major drawback: it is a tax, which inevitably lowers incentives and decreases output. If the NFL shared all (or even most) local intake, why would an individual team ever look to maximize revenues at its own cost (i.e. by hiring a sales staff, or cleaning its own stadium)?" You may as well say that personal income decreases incentive to work, so why should any adult work at all? Well, you don't work for the 40% you get taxed, you work for the 60% you take home. And you might have some marginal decline in incentives, but you still have incentives. You also have tax loopholes/shelters such as building costs (see the new Yankee Stadium).

Lastly, it leaps from the 83-win team in a bad division to generalize to every team when it says, "Teams in big markets and small markets alike are making money, and everyone has a chance to win it all." He should tell that to the fans of the Pirates who he used as an example earlier in the piece. Also I would argue that there's a difference between having, "a chance to win it all" and being competitive. Short playoff series are fluky and one bounce, one pitch can decide it. What you really want to look at are the odds each team has of making the post-season or if you do use championships to be the end-all, be-all, look at the pre-season odds that each team is given by Vegas of winning the World Series. That will give you an implied metric of how each teams' fans can view their chances.

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:baseball has just been through a decade in which its competitive balance was as high as it has ever been in any period in its history and was as high or higher than every other professional sport.

You're a data guy: what is this based upon?


Most of the data I'm looking at is only available through pay sites because it's in academic journals like the Journal of Sports Economics. If you can get a copy of the 2003 issue that recapped the Vanderbilt University conference and included 3-4 articles on competitive balance, you'll see some of the information and data. Competitive balance measures like the HH index and the NS index both show the most recent decade to be the most or second most competitive decade in the history of baseball. Dave Berri provides a reasonable set of citations on competitive balance in sports in his comment on a Bill James' article
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/ ... /#more-595

If you want to look at some of the popular free press stuff check out:

Neyer: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/s ... id=1792127
Barra: http://www.slate.com/id/2088929/

Another way of looking at this is how well a sports league distributes talent. Phil Birnbuam used a method suggested by Tom Tango and found baseball had the most even distribution of talent among the 4 sports. See discussion and links here
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.p ... s_leagues/
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to chase it."
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Re: Be careful what you wish for... [salary cap]

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:06 pm

J35J wrote:
:-°


Typical response when it's all rhetoric and no fact or logic.
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to chase it."
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ayebatter and 8 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact